How drunk was eddowes?

[Rubyretro]

It seems a sad but totally believable story to Me Packers..an illustration of the life of poor women like this, and why women like Kate become 'easy victims' for JtR.

[lynn cates]

date

Hello Packer.

"On 27 September Catharine and John Kelly reached
London . . ."

(A-Z, p. 122.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

DT

Hello (again) packer. This is from the Daily Telegraph, October 4, 1888.

"[Coroner] Where did you sleep? - On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday we were down at the hop-picking, and came back to London on Thursday."

But perhaps you see a good many anomalies in John's testimony and hence discount it? Splendid! So do I.

Cheers.
LC

[packers stem]

Hi Lynn
My A-Z page 129 'On 28 September Catherine and Kelly reached London...'
Must admit mine's a 1994 version so maybe it's altered on never revisions.
Apologies if i've got this wrong.

[lynn cates]

reconstruction

Hello Packer. No need to apologise. I learn a good deal more from a mistake than any other item.

Now, whilst mulling over events from Thursday through the end of Saturday, try to reconstruct what John and Catharine were about. Look over his testimony with a fine toothed comb. I hope that you will find it revealing as I did.

Cheers.
LC

[bolo]

Hi Corey,

Jason, Bolo,


Remember during the post-mortem her liver was declared healthy.

several people (including her daughter Annie, biased as she may have been) fell out with her because of her, quote, "heavy drinking". The fact that her liver wasn't cirrhotic does not mean much.

That's not to say Kate was an habitual drunkard, just fond of drink and a bit of fun, and sometimes she probably drank more than was good for her.

Regards,

Boris

[Addy]

And het liver might be healthy, her kidney was diseased. Bright's disease seems to have been common around then with habitual drinkers. And I believe she was given to drink when she was together with Conway.

I don't think she was completely sober when she was released, but sober enough to take care of herself (meaning capable of going home without causing more trouble. Obviously JtR wasn't included in taking care of yourself)

Greetings,

Addy

[Mrs. E. Nigma]

Thanks, Joel, for that informative post.

--Erynn

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

Catherine had only been back from hopping a couple of days, and it was customary for hop growers to ply their workers with lots of free, very strong cider in the evenings. One of the perks of the job.

Of course they would make sure that no-one drank so much they couldn't do a good days work the next day, but Kate would probably have been able to drink a fair amount without it affecting her senses too much. She might have felt that she needed a drink when she got back to London, a 'hair of the dog' as it were. She'd been at the casual wards for a couple of nights and probably needed a drink, knowing the conditions in those places!

I think it's safe to say that she was probably still fairly drunk when she left Bishopsgate police station. The police rarely prosecuted drunks from the very poorest classes, because if they couldn't afford fourpence for a doss, they could hardly afford the 40 shilling fine for being drunk and disorderly. The police may have prosecuted drunkards that looked as if they could pay the fine, but what was the point of hanging onto Kate as long as she was capable of getting home on her own?

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[joelhall]

And het liver might be healthy, her kidney was diseased. Bright's disease seems to have been common around then with habitual drinkers. And I believe she was given to drink when she was together with Conway.

I don't think she was completely sober when she was released, but sober enough to take care of herself (meaning capable of going home without causing more trouble. Obviously JtR wasn't included in taking care of yourself)

Greetings,

Addy

Eddowes remaining kidney was fine according to the post-mortem reports.

As far as the liver goes, there is much damage that can be inflicted before outward signs, such as fat deposition, inflammation or obvious structural damage take hold. The liver is a somewhat hardy organ, so there would not necessarily be any physical/visual signs of disease, so simply examining the liver would not prove whether she was alcoholic or not unless these changes had already become present, merely suggestive of what diseases were affecting the liver. Alcoholics of course do not automatically succumb to hepatic disease. As well as this, damage occurs to other parts of the body as well, parts which are more susceptible than the liver in the shorter term.

I'm not even overly sure what LFTs were available in those days which would give an idea of damage, although it wouldn't make a great deal of difference - the victim was dead hence her liver function would have stopped anyway.

[Addy]

Hi Joelhall,

It depends on which book you read. Some state doctors said the kidney was healthy, others that is was diseased. That is also the problem with the kidney send to Lusk. Some say it couldn't have been Eddowes' because this kidney was diseased and hers wasn't, or that the lenghts of the renal artery retained didn't match. Others say her kidney was diseased and the lenghts of renal artery did match.

However, this discussion has no bearing on how drunk Eddowes was when she left the police station. Whether she was a habitual drinker or an occasional drinker, she probably wasn't completely sober when she left.

Greetings,

Addy

[Chava]

One thing I've noticed is that they were all seen to be drunk on the nights they were killed with the exception of Liz Stride. She is spoken of as a woman of sober habits. But she had been taken up as drunk and disorderly outside The 10 Bells a while earlier, and it's not unlikely that she was drinking that night.

I realize that drunken women were not necessarily rare in that place at that time. But I do wonder if Our Guy spots them in the pubs and stalks them a while. A drunken woman is less able to defend herself than a sober woman, and more prone to take risks. Perhaps it's the drink that links the victims rather than appearance or profession.

[Monty]

Bricklayers Arms Chava.

Monty

[Rubyretro]

Chava -maybe the women were driven to Prostitution by the need for money
to 'feed their habit' -and maybe they needed the drink to dull the perceptions of their grim lives ? (they needed an 'escape' -and they weren't in a 'place' to watch telly or read -the pub was their social life).

They probably got customers in or near Pubs, too.

I don't think that JtR targeted specifically drunk females -but that all the prostitutes were a bit p****d, as a matter of course.

Jane -totally agree with your comment on Eddowes and hop picking..;I well remember all the Vendanges I used to do ! (grape picking for French vinyards).

[packers stem]

Hello Packer. No need to apologise. I learn a good deal more from a mistake than any other item.

Now, whilst mulling over events from Thursday through the end of Saturday, try to reconstruct what John and Catharine were about. Look over his testimony with a fine toothed comb. I hope that you will find it revealing as I did.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
Thanks for that about John.
we're supposed to believe that another(unnamed) woman came to tell him that catharine had been locked up that night and he didn't go to make enquiries about her!
The official line is that he didn't come forward until he read about the pawn ticket.
A normal reaction surely would have been to go to bishopsgate station either straight way after being told or at least the morning after.
I agree the account of the previous day is also strange (in fact he didn't seem sure himself what day they came back)as is his vagueness reguarding her past.'I believe she lived with a man named Conway' etc.
Very Odd