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Crossing the Line

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  • Crossing the Line

    I don't know if this has been discussed before (I'm guessing yes) but what are people's opinions about Mitre Sq?

    Specifically, do you beleive that Jack deliberately entered the jurisdiction of the City Police? If so, why?

    Was he even aware that he was in City territory?

    “Sans arme, sans violence et sans haine”

  • #2
    If he lived in the East End and the area was familiar to him, then it's quite logical that he might've done so deliberately.

    However, he might have been a foreigner and this was simply the location of oppurtunity.

    You make a very interesting point. Thanks for posting this.
    "You want to take revenge for my murdered sister? Sister would definitely have not ... we would not have wanted you to be like this."

    ~ Angelina Durless


    • #3
      Mitre Square

      He may have been unaware of the jurisdiction that he was in. I think that he was so focused on meeting his "needs" that this would not have been prominent in his mind. If Jack was a local man, do the majority of local men or women actually know the boundaries of the police?


      • #4
        Hi Magpie,

        I think this is one of those issues (and there's many) that come down to 'who' do you think JTR was. If you prefer Kosminski, then the cross over to City territory would not be seen as intentional. If you favor a policeman as JTR or, in my case, Le Grand, then it would almost certainly have been intentional. But based on the crime evidence alone, it would be a crapshoot.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott


        • #5
          Mitre Square is so close to Whitechapel, I doubt he'd know he was in 'foreign' territory. Whoever he was, I think it was just a question of finding a woman that worked for him and killing her. I doubt very much that he thought about police jurisdiction except in that he may have had a small secret smile if Eddowes told him she'd just been let out of gaol because she was considered sober, and that was the City Police policy.


          • #6
            Hi Magpie,

            Maybe it was just that he was attracted to that part of the district because of St. Botolph's Church, also referred to as the 'Prostitute's Church'.

            "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
            Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"


            • #7
              Hi all!

              It is indeed an interesting question. Most books I've read so far claim he crossed the border on purpose because of the alarm over Stride's death.
              However, even if it was because of that it could have been unintentional if he wasn't aware of the boundaries.

              I guess it indeed depends on your vision of who the Ripper was. Personally I feel he was moving away from Berner Street as quickly as possible and then ran into Eddowes. However the idea of the Church and the knowledge of the prostitutes around there sounds convincing too.




              • #8
                I don't think he knew that he was no longer technically in the East End when he unknowingly[?] crossed the line. Though I think the reason he picked Mitre Square or thereabouts (I highly doubt the actual location was premeditated) for his next ripping was for the sole purpose of not running the risk of being caught. To have performed another rip in Whitechapel at the time that the Leather Apron/Ripper[?] scares were really starting to kick off would've, in his mind (speculation, obviously), had made the prostitutes a little more cautious of who it was they were servicing. Maybe he thought that if he did his next killing outside of Whitechapel that he would be safer somehow, as the people there wouldn't have been as aware of the possible threat of the people around them. That and seeing as I don't personally think he killed Stride, I think it was always his intention to do his next murder after Chapman outside of the district for that reason - as a precaution.


                • #9
                  I believe the Ripper killed both Liz and Kate, and in that light there is no way he was thinking of boundaries or jurisdictions as he fled from Berner Street in his frantic rush to find a second victim. In my own experience it is only a 14-minute walk from one site to the other and that's with today's traffic, and I think he was just looking for another pros wherever he could find her. Exactly which police force he would be dealing with would have meant nothing to him, since there would be one or another wherever he went and he would be just as screwed no matter who caught him. "Coppers are coppers."


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chava View Post
                    Mitre Square is so close to Whitechapel, I doubt he'd know he was in 'foreign' territory.
                    Conversely, it could be stated that because Miller's Court was so close to Bishopsgate; 'Jack the Ripper' probably wouldn't have known that he was not in the City of London, while realizing his fantasies with Mary Jane Kelly.

                    Boundaries lie, ... where boundaries lie. I would think that anyone familiar with the vicinity of the 'killing fields' of 'Jack the Ripper', in 1888, would have been familiar with the eastern boundaries of the City of London.

                    The City of London Corporation and its constituent Wards were extremely wealthy; as were the constituent Parishes and extra-parochial precincts within each of its Wards. I would think, therefore, that municipal and parochial boundary markers would have been quite plentiful.

                    Street signs, bearing the names 'Houndsditch', 'Minories', 'Duke Street', 'Jewry Street', and of course 'Aldgate' and 'Aldgate High Street' would have served as clear indications that he was in the City of London. So too, would have prominent landmarks, such as the Parish Church of St. Botolph without Aldgate and Aldgate Pump.

                    And, of course, had he caught a glimpse of any City of London Police Constables, their distinct 'helmets' would have been all that he needed to see, in order to know that he had left the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Police Force.

                    Now; did any of this matter to 'Jack the Ripper'?* I seriously doubt that he could have cared less than he did! I'm quite certain that he plainly and simply hunted, where there was prey to be found. And there were no magical or mystical force-shields preventing him from crossing municipal, parochial or jurisdictional boundaries. And, please let's remember that for all we know, he may have routinely entered the East End, from the City of London.

                    * It may have mattered to the 'dollymops', upon whom he preyed. After all, they might have found that depending upon the sort of activities, in which they were engaged, ...

                    - Begging
                    - Pick-Pocketing
                    - Shop-Lifting
                    - Hawking Stolen Goods
                    - Acting in 'Drunk & Disorderly' Manners
                    - Soliciting
                    - Sleeping 'Rough'
                    - Etc.

                    ... they were afforded more lenience, by one police force, or the other.

                    Originally posted by Frank van Oploo View Post
                    Maybe it was just that he was attracted to that part of the district because of St. Botolph's Church, also referred to as the 'Prostitute's Church'.
                    "... St. Botolph's Church, also referred to as the 'Prostitute's Church'"

                    East End / 'Ripper' lore, for which there is no historical basis!

                    I challenge anyone to find a single contemporary reference, to the Parish Church of St. Botolph without Aldgate having been known as the 'Prostitutes' Church', in the nineteenth century.

                    For that matter, I challenge anyone to find a single contemporary reference, to the immediate vicinity of the Parish Church of St. Botolph without Aldgate having been a prostitute 'hot spot', in the nineteenth century.

                    I think we can assume, with good reason, that Aldgate High Street itself, enjoyed more than its fair share of soliciting prostitutes and 'dollymops' alike, during the Victorian era; but even then, I have yet to see a contemporary reference.
                    Last edited by Septic Blue; 03-05-2010, 07:52 PM.