Freakishly fast

[perrymason]

Perhaps its not the complexity or non-complexity of the particular injuries inflicted here that is the root of the thread question, or maybe it is.

Sam you suggest 5 minutes total for all injuries. I think many would think that a fair number. So if Lawende saw Kate with her killer, which Monty makes some good points on to begin with, but if he did....thats roughly 1:35am. They need to get to the site, Kate needs to be sudued before being cut, and the killer then does all the cutting in 5 minutes, so lets say 1 minute or less to location, 1 minute or less to get her quiet, on the ground, and cut her throat. Its now around 1:37am. Now 5 minutes of cutting. Thats 1:42...when Harvey is in Church Passage heading to the court entrance.

Not only does that make it extremely tight for him to get out between Harvey and Watkins arrival, but it also doesn't account for one of the acts being the removal of a kidney through the front of a victim lying flat on cobblestones, in the dark.

If Lawende saw him, he took less than 5 minutes with Kate, and that is freakishly fast.

My best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Sam you suggest 5 minutes total for all injuries. I think many would think that a fair number. So if Lawende saw Kate with her killer, which Monty makes some good points on to begin with, but if he did....thats roughly 1:35am...

For what it's worth, I set out a timetable in my article. Whilst it can't possibly be definitive - I wasn't there! - it's at least a reasonable attempt to demonstrate that what may have happened was not particularly "freakish" or miraculous.

[The Good Michael]

Just to add a bit: The idea of the kidney removal, including the seeking and finding of in relative darkness, doesn't seem so time consuming if we look at it as just the first organ that he fished out. Once his hands are inside, it just a bit of a tug and cut without really any additional time being added. That is, of course, assuming he just wanted something, and had no preconceived plan of retrieving a kidney.

Sorry if I was a bit nonchalant in my description.

Mike

[perrymason]

Just to add a bit: The idea of the kidney removal, including the seeking and finding of in relative darkness, doesn't seem so time consuming if we look at it as just the first organ that he fished out. Once his hands are inside, it just a bit of a tug and cut without really any additional time being added. That is, of course, assuming he just wanted something, and had no preconceived plan of retrieving a kidney.

Sorry if I was a bit nonchalant in my description.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I do see that perspective, and Ive heard Sam suggest the same types of behaviors with this abdominal mutilator. Slash and grab, as y'all say.

Certainly a real possibility. Im actually only thrown by the surgery that is performed on 2 victims myself...so I dont see experienced hands being a necessity at all. But Kate is one of those 2 for me, primarily for the volume of activity within a very short window, rather than the surgical expertise required. And for the kidney, because as you suggest, it may have been a target of his for some reason, and if so, was a somewhat difficult task via her front. He also takes his second uterus in a row, from the victims that had abdominal cutting to that point.

Sam, I recall seeing and reading a timetable you had put down for the various cuts and actions, and it seemed reasonable, if you assume like you do that the nicks were not each independent cuts, but collateral damage, ...or that the 2 feet of colon between arm and body wasnt placed but dropped there, or that it wasnt twisted into her neck wound, as some described it...or that he thought ahead of cutting the apron piece, so when he was finished he just did that without thinking, or wondering how to get this handful away without ruining another coat perhaps.

And remember Sam, he also had to get to to that spot, get her down and kill her before he even starts cutting, and if you dont entertain the action/adventure idea that he is still in the court over Kate when Harvey looks in, which I dont myself,... then he still has only a minute and the same carriageway exit that he had before Harvey to get away, only now with one cop just leaving and one arriving. I believe if Harvey went down the passage at all, which is ponder-able, then I think he didnt see the killer 'cause he was already gone, or halfway out via the carriageway.

As I demonstrated in my unscientific timing before, even if youre right and it was only 5 minutes, if the man seen with Kate was the killer, then he would still be cutting as Harvey arrives.

To my eye the most probable way he could have pulled it off in that time frame and still not be freakishly fast, which I believe.. even if an amateur, he was Sam, adding darkness and all factors...then he is probably already in position to get Kate as she walks through the courtyard, after leaving the man seen with her at 1:35, or being escorted by him in to the waiting killer..... That could be blitkrieg, and eliminates them walking slowly making small talk while getting into the square, him looking for his best time to act, the minor struggle at least, ...if she walks past the spot and he is in the shadows and pounces, I could maybe see the timing as tight, but possible.

But it does require that we accept much of what was done to her was done without thought and quickly...like inspiration, cut...inspiration, cut...without missing many beats, like perhaps considering his next action. Hesitating when thinking of something to carry the organs in....angry that he had shite on his hands, and wondered where to wipe them...all the little hesitations, pauses, sitting back to look at his handiwork for a sec while cutting.

I think an amateur would be way over his head, and wouldnt work as fast as you suggest.

My best regards Mike, Sam.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

I think an amateur would be way over his head, and wouldnt work as fast as you suggest.

But a "professional" (as district from a rank amateur) isn't taught to do anything "fast", least of all abdominal evescerations. It's often stated that the speed of the mutilations/eviscerations somehow point towards professional training, but the reverse is true. The type of individual likely to be adept at fast eviscerations is - surprise! - an eviscerating serial killer; one who learned on the job and became more skilled at it through practice, and yet the botched job of the uterus extraction suggests he wasn't especially "skilled" anyway.

Happy Easter!

Ben

[The Good Michael]

But a "professional" (as district from a rank amateur) isn't taught to do anything "fast", least of all abdominal evescerations.

Ben,

Except for a butcher who seems to be able to denude bone in the wink of an eye, tossing aside the fatty bits equally as quickly to be used for sausages and filler for cat's meat pies.

I'm not intimating anything here.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Except for a butcher who seems to be able to denude bone in the wink of an eye, tossing aside the fatty bits equally as quickly ... I'm not intimating anything here.

It's a very interesting point, though, Mike.

[Ben]

You're quite right, Mike.

The only factor that, for me, militates quite strongly against a trained butcher is the conspicuously failed attempts at decapitation. A butcher would have had this ability (and the knife for the job) in his armoury. It's tempting to surmise that these were just incredibly deep throat cuts, but Phillips observation that an attempt had been made to sever the vertebrae suggest otherwise.

Best regards,
Ben

[The Good Michael]

Ben,

Never have I been one to advocate a butcher, but in defense of those who might, perhaps the tool used was not sufficient for that, but sharp enough to slice tissue. Even the best butcher would need a bonesaw or at least a chopper to get through the neck, I would think. If the neck was resting on something, it would be a lot easier, but to use a trimming knife, say to try to do a draw cut all the way through the vertebra may take a lot of effort and risk slippage and cutting oneself. Let's look at what the butcher has to say about bones:

Bone Saw
A proper bone saw makes the job of cutting bones so much easier. Bone saws come in a variety of different lengths and saw blade strengths; from cutting small bones to splitting a beef carcass. For what we do here a small bone saw is sufficient and very affordable and certainly a tool you should own if you want to process a pork or deer carcass on a regular basis.
What about chopping bones with an ax or bone cleaver? As a professional I only ever used these devices to split carcasses, but since the new electric "splitting saws" came out I stopped using ax and cleavers. Have you ever heard the joke about the butcher chopping his finger off? It is not a joke, it used to be the most common injury in my trade. As a layman you are liable to have your fingers chopped off too with these tools if you have no experience using them. Besides, it makes for lots of bone splinters that end up in your sausage or on your T-Bone steak and pork chops.

You see? It's serious business.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

The other thought is, he could have been sawing away at the neck and thought, "Cor! What am I going to do wif 'er 'ead? Best be gettin' aught a bit smaller."


Mike

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Even the best butcher would need a bonesaw or at least a chopper to get through the neck, I would think

Not so, surprisingly. A knife, rather than a saw, is invariably used to decapitate an animal as large as a cow. There was an ever-so-slightly lurid programme on BBC3 recently which outlined the whole butchery process from abatoir to dinner plate, and a knife was used in the decapitiation process. They only used a saw to divide the carcass in two for "hanging" the meat.

Clearly, any butcher worthy of that job descripton would know which knives are good enough for which job, and even if, by some bizare oversight, he tried to decapitate Annie with an erroneous knife, he'd certainly resolve to bring the correct implement along if he had any decaptiation designs on further victims. His apparent consistent failure in that regard tends to point away from a butcher as the perpatrator. Similarly, if Jack the Butcher knew from professional experience that his prostitute-killing knife was insufficient to perform a decapitation, he wouldn't bother trying.

Best wishes,
Ben

[The Good Michael]

I will say this: A butcher can slice through the cartilage between the vertebra very quickly. If it was dark and he was in a hurry, and there were things like scarves, coats, and clothing in the way, he may not have found it so easy. Generally speaking, I'd say you were right. I'd hazard a guess that the film you saw was an abattoir at work on a supine beast with it's body supported by a table or something, and not a lifeless woman that one is trying to hold up with one arm while sawing away with the other. Specifics can change generalities.

Cheers,

Mike

[perrymason]

As always, the butcher skill sets would fit both the speed and understanding of what was where Mike, if it wasn't just slash and grab mind you.

Ben, I think you could also spin that argument you presented, because a complete amateur wouldn't likely perform all things sequentially, like a skilled disectionist might. For example, whats stopping an amateur from pulling out the intestines, then carving the nicks on the face, cutting her nose, then cutting the colon section, then stabbing...

A person who has experienced this kind of knife work before might do things as you say, in logical progression...remove the intestines to better get at the kidney. But for all we know, the only thing he didnt do in specific order is cut her face right after the colon section, because there is no "matter" in her facial wounds. He might have gone at this bassackwards, and in doing so, taken more time.

The cutting is not the issue for me in terms of timing, its the possible hesitancy between acts, or perhaps the lack of a game plan, or the nervousness, or the darkness, or the indecision whether to cut or rip the apron piece...he does both...for that matter, deciding on what to use to carry organs...or wipe himself, hardly a possibility though if the rag wasn't placed in Goulston until 70 minutes after the kill.

The killer cutting like a child shovels sand over his shoulder, just digging in with two hands and throwing things aside or over his shoulder, or ripping organs free... is very unsophisticated for a man that has virtually perfected an attack technique, seems to have considered departure routes, and places himself at a location where he knew his time with a corpse would be very short...at most what, 14 minutes between court passes by police?

In short we have what appears to be a man "organizing" his kill strategies....and thats not a kid in a sandbox.

My best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

just digging in with two hands and throwing things aside or over his shoulder, or ripping organs free... is very unsophisticated for a man that has virtually perfected an attack technique

The notion of Jack "perfecting" his attack technique is almost akin to someone "perfecting" tripping somebody up - just about anyone could do it, in my view.

[kensei]

Decapitation by knife- in 1999 Cary Anthony Stayner, the Yosemite Park killer of California, killed two adult women and two teenage girls. The last was Joie Ruth Armstrong, a naturalist and tour guide. She escaped from his initial attempt to kidnap her, at which point he chased her down and severed her head with what he later claimed was one swift stroke from a large hunting knife.