Do we know who this "witness" is?

[Chris Scott]

Hi Phil
There are so many weird things in this account I hardly know where to begin...
18 children - 18 years in England... very neat
I find the idea that neither witness - neither his sister in law nor his son - were there on the day. As he called them, he presumably expected them to be there. And the idea that his mother would not let the boy attend because he stuttered when his father faced serious charges is just daft
We know he married less than a year before this trial to margaret Hamilton - was she the mother of all his children and they only belatedly got hitched? Or had he been widowed and she was a new spouse?
What on earth does he mean when he says: "the attraction for both boys and girls was that he was a "dark man." Is that as sinister as it sounds???
I'll see if I can fiond any more
With at least 18 kids knocking about there must be something. But I reckon he must have used another surname - this son Arthur, 11 at the time of the trial, would have been born in about 1878. There is certainly no trace of an Arthur Violina or reasonable variant thereof born around that time
Watch this space...

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

Yes, extremely wierd! Sounds very very weak all round. The sinister bit isn't very compelling is it? Especially the use of "boys and girls"..Oh my.
And to think that Thicke apparently said "you know what for" to Pizer. The man who witnessed against Pizer is didn't turn out to be what the police call a very credible witness was he?

I look forward to the sequel...

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Hi Chris and Phil,

I make him the meanest bastard I've encountered so far in the Ripper story.
Jack aside...or not...

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Hi Chris and Phil,

I make him the meanest bastard I've encountered so far in the Ripper story.
Jack aside...or not...

Amitiés,
David

Hello David,

Hmmmm.. and he only got 14 months in prison...

bestwishes

Phil

[Chris Scott]

I wondered if the attack on him by Atkinson was related to the nature of his offences - in the same way that such offenders often have to be segregated nowadays for their own protection
As the name is so illegible at the size of print in which I have posted the trial report, below is a larger version to show we have the right man...
I've also just noticed that the Charles Atkinson who attacked Violina is the first one listed on the page I posted on the first page of this thread with details of the sentence. From this we can see that Arkison got 18 months...

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

You are, imho, probably correct in your first query.

By the way, initial results on both Ancestry and LDS gave no results, but I am still fishing. BMD next.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,
So far, nothing new.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris Scott]

Hi Phil
I'm still looking as well:-)
One thing I'm wondering...
If Violina was sentenced to 14 months in June 1889, he should have been released at the latest by August 1890, so should have been at liberty at the time of the April 1891 census but no sign yet.
I wonder if when released he pursued his previously alleged plan of going to Australia, with or without his wife and any of his kids
Following various ideas at the moment - I know this is a very minor blip in the whole Ripper story but it is a gripping story and just the sort of thing I like getting my teeth into
I'll keep you posted
Chris S

[Chris Scott]

For any readers of this thread not familiar with it, here is a reminder of this man's involvement in the Chapman case:

The Times
12 September 1888
A half-Spaniard and half-Bulgarian, who gave the name of Emanuel Delbast Violenia, waited on the police with respect to this inquiry. He stated that he, his wife, and two children tramped from Manchester to London with the view of being able to emigrate to Australia, and took up their abode in one of the lodging-houses in Hanbury-street. Early last Saturday morning, walking alone along Hanbury-street, he noticed a man and woman quarrelling in a very excited manner. Violenia distinctly heard the man threaten to kill the woman by sticking a knife into her. They passed on, and Violenia went to his lodging. After the murder he communicated what he had seen to the police. At 1 o'clock yesterday afternoon Sergeant Thicke, assisted by Inspector Canaby, placed about a dozen men, the greater portion of whom were Jews, in the yard of the Leman-street Police-station. Pizer was then brought out and allowed to place himself where he thought proper among the assembled men. He is a man of short stature, with black whiskers and shaven chin. Violenia, who had been accommodated in one of the lower rooms of the station-house, was then brought up into the yard. Having keenly scrutinized all the faces before him, he at once, without any hesitation or doubt whatever, went up to Pizer and identified him as the man whom he heard threaten a woman on the night of the murder. Pizer, who has not been allowed to have communication with any of his friends, was then taken back to the station-house. It was then decided, with the approval of Detective-Inspector Abberline, that Violenia should be taken to the Whitechapel mortuary to see whether he could identify the deceased woman as the one he had seen in Pizer's company early on Saturday morning. The result is not announced, but it is believed that he was unable to identify her. Subsequently, cross-examination so discredited Violenia's evidence that it was wholly distrusted by the police, and Pizer was set at liberty.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

I think, as a possible half answer, that he has used his mother's first name, Violenia, as a surname. I have been looking into Rootsweb, and 57 messages there all for women called Voilena (first name)...Could he be on his way to the US? Re Diemshitz etc? Or back to his homeland?
So can his real last name be Delbast?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

Sorry, I have come up empty handed this time. Hope you have had more luck.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris Scott]

Nothing so far, but I'm not ready to quit just yet...

[Chris]

I suppose his marriage certificate would tell us something (if only his father's name).

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris
Definitely worth ordering as it would also tell his age and where he was living at the time of the murders when not in Hanbury Street (his marriage took place in the Jul-Sep quarter of 1888)
Chris

I'll get this one ordered

[Chris]

I suppose his marriage certificate would tell us something (if only his father's name).

Incidentally, his marriage is also listed in the UKBMD index, compiled from the local indexes of civil registration records, which tells us the actual parish where it took place:

VIOLINA Simanuel D
HAMILTON Margaret J
1888
Lymm, St Mary
Registers At Warrington
Reference C13/2/212