Eddowes Photograph

[Trevor Marriott]

Btw, Simon, what I read from McDonald in Lacassagne looks like a summary of the worst press reports (Kelly's heart found on her leg, mutilated woman in December 1887, and so on and so on...).
I just realized that it's the main source used by Desnos for his 1928 articles. Several sentences are almost the same.

Amitiés,
David

"Kelly`s heart found on leg"

Now thats of interest, first report i have seen to suggest it was not taken away. I am sure that wasnt just plucked out of the sky..

Over to the jury for deliberation

[DVV]

Sorry, David, you've got me stumped. Who is Desnos?

Hi Simon,

Robert Desnos was a French surrealist poet who wrote a series of fanciful articles on JtR (and on Vacher) in 1928 (for "Paris-Matinal"). Lastly, he met the Ripper (it's not clear, it could also be a Ripper's friend) in rue d'Assas...
I think these articles have been translated in English by Eduardo Zinna.
I've always wondered about his sources, and came to realize yesterday it was Lacassagne/McDonald.

Desnos died in a nazi camp in 1945.

Amitiés,
David

[Dark_Intent]

Dodgy Photo

I think this thread is fascinating, so thanks to all for the interesting contributions.

Many years ago, when I first saw this photograph along with the other Eddowes photos I felt there was something wrong with it. It simply didn't look like Eddowes to me. Without studying it in any depth, as has been done here, I guessed that it was Stride. At the time, I thought the hair looked more like Stride's and while the nose might be a point of contention, I had a theory that JTR punched his victims violently to stun them, before strangling them, so felt that it might tie in with that.

On balance though, I'd have to say that this is probably Eddowes, but that it's a very "dodgy photo" as there as so many problems with it that can't be explained, as covered so well on this thread.

With regard to the body, I certainly think the photographic flash has something to do with the lack of features that we see, but this might appear to have been magnified by something. Could it be that the body is covered with a thin light sheet? It would account for the lack of discernable features (breasts) and wounds, although for example the triangular mark may be where blood has come through. It might also account for what appears to be a collar on the neck wound. To me this seems possible, as for identification purposes you may well cover the body as best you could leaving only the face exposed. Try to minimise upset to any relatives etc.

As to the face there are so many problems with this. The wound under the neck that might have teeth in it (a mouth) is difficult to explain (although the photo is of such poor quality) but this seems to link with the long thin cut running in a crescent up the right side of the face (left as we look at it). It's almost as if someone has replaced the face with another one delineated by the crescent cut and leaving a second mouth exposed underneath. Before anyone says so, I admit this is just a bit of speculation, but the face does raise some questions.

In summary, I think it probably is Eddowes, but there are a good many odd features, possibly caused by the poor quality of the photo, possibly caused by tampering at the time or later, or possibly some other explanation.

I look forward to more debate on this interesting historical piece.

Cheers
DI

[Scott Nelson]

I think this thread is fascinating

You've got to be kidding, right?

On balance though, I'd have to say that this is probably Eddowes

Yes...?

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Thanks for the Robert Desnos information. Mmmm, other than poking hot needles in my eyes, reading French surrealist poetry is my favourite pastime.

Armed with your information I had a look around, and it appears that Lacassagne did not write the JtR chapter in his 1899 book. According to Wolf Vanderlinden's review of McLaughlin's book he lifted it wholesale from Arthur McDonald's 1893 book and simply added the Kelly and Eddowes photographs. So, no fresh French insights there. And it seems from what you say that Desnos did much the same. I hadn't realised there was such a healthy Ripper recycling industry going on at the time. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Regards,

Simon

[Dark_Intent]

You've got to be kidding, right?



Yes...?

Mr Nelson
No I'm not kidding!

It's quite possible to be undecided on this photograph. On balance I think it Eddowes, but I'm interested in the many inconsistencies and the discussion around those and I don't rule out that one of those lines of argument may develop a viable alternative. Let's face it if everything was black and white life would be pretty boring huh?

DI

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

David and Simon

A few things about Lamoureux, Lacassagne and MacDonald’s books.

American criminologist Arthur Macdonald’s 1893 book Le Criminel-Type dans Quelques Formes Graves de la Criminalité was not a French translation of an English work. It was, instead, a book published only in France. Chapter IV, La sexualité pathologique, contains a section, Observation IX, which deals with the Ripper. In 1892 MacDonald petitioned the British Home Office to see all the HO and police medical reports dealing with the murders but was turned down. From a reading of the chapter it is clear that MacDonald simply used newspaper reports rather than had any inside knowledge of the medical facts. There are no photographs in MacDonald’s book dealing with the Whitechapel victims (there are, however, prints of some of the murderers he studied).

André Lamoureux’s 1894 doctoral thesis, De l’Éventration au point de vue médico-légal, has one photograph, that of Mary Kelly, which he probably got from his professor, Alexandre Lacassagne. I have not read Lamoureux’s thesis.

Lacassagne published the Kelly photo and one of Eddowes, as you know. In his Chapter XI Les crimes sadiques there is a section on the victims of Jack the Ripper which is taken straight from Macdonald’s 1893 book (as is the entire chapter).

Wolf.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wolf,

Many thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

Many thanks too , Wolf.

Hi Simon,

surrealist poetry ?

"Jadis l'herbe était bonne au fou et hostile au bourreau...
Elle n'était dure pour aucun de ceux, qui, perdant leur chemin, souhaitent le perdre à jamais..."

René Char.

Of course I'm drunk after Wales-France, and I'm not sure it's the exact wordind... Anyway René Char is Provençal. No matter.

Amitiés,
David

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

My point exactly. You need to be drunk to read that stuff.

Now . . . where did I put those hot needles?

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

Oh, René Char is great, Simon, drunk or not.

I can't forget his texts in which he remembers war... Two youths were about to be shot by the Germans... Char and a handful of Resistance fighters were hidden in the bush...not enough to win the battle...and Char ordered them not to fire...and their friends were shot. It's in "Feuillets d'Hypnos". Straight and meaningful.
Char is really great.

Amitiés,
David

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Phil.

I've cleaned up the Eddowes 'shell' image ...



... and it looks to me as though a cloth or something similar has been placed over the nose. Perhaps this accounts for at least one of the discrepancies you are seeing in the photograph.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Garry!

Thank you!

I think, that we might need more of these cleaned versions of the mortuary and crime scene photos here!

All the best
Jukka

[Suzi]

Hi all- again- I guess a piece of cloth may have been placed over the end of the nose- especially as the end had been cut off- odd tho' to leave the rest of it on display .......

[Garry Wroe]

I've been messing about with one or two others, Jukka. I'll post them once they're finished.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.