Eddowes Mortuary Photo - Graphic

[KatBradshaw]

I like your posts Hellrider. I think that in many ways you and Ally are making very similar points.

I totally agree with your post re people having strange polarised views re abortion and the death penalty. I also agree with what you said about terming someone 'Worthless'. I can only look to the families of murdered people who forgive killers for this statement. Although I am not sure I would have such strength myself.

I think that the key issue with these pictures is the fact that they ARE out there. It is a persons free choice whether they look at them or not. As I said in my earlier post there are many images out there which people could use for whatever purposes they like.

[protohistorian]

How would you define worth then Hell Rider? Does being shot out of a woman's womb automatically make you "worthy"? Is that all it takes? You have a specific DNA sequence so you are automatically immune from being called worthless?

Who determines inherent worth? Why does that specific sequence of DNA grant immunity from judgment?

There is no such thing as inherent worth just because of a DNA sequence. We don't grant such immunity to any other species and it is the height of ego and hubris to grant it to ourselves.

When people talk about the inherent worth of human beings, what they are saying of course, is that they themselves are immune from judgment, and no matter what terrible things you do, you are still "worthy". This is indulgent and egocentric thinking.

When an individual violates the rights and bodies of members of their society, they cease to be contributing members of that society because no matter what their contributions may be in other areas, arbitrary elimination of members of the society outweighs any positive contribution they might otherwise make. They therefore have no worth to that society, they therefore are worthless and should be removed.

Unless they are kept alive for the purpose of medical research and experimentation, and kept alive only so long as they continue to provide valuable research, to be disposed of when they are no longer viable.

The problem has been no one researches them and when the next one comes along, society whines " why do we have no awnser for this?" Until we study this behavior in earnest it serves society right to have there members hunted by people they ignore.

[Nothing to see]

I don't have a problem with looking at Eddowes' and Kelly's after death photos. Eddowes' at least I can see what she looked like and what Jack did to her. I've looked at Kelly's many times and it's just a blur with a body and an arm. Yes, I know I'm not looking at a color photo but it doesn't really give me any more info besides the fact that Jack really went berserk. I need the autopsy to know what he did, not that grainy photo.

Eddowes' photo shows the facial injuries. I look at that and I think, all that pent up rage after not being able to mutilate Stride. It also makes me think, just how much skill did Jack have?

There are far worse things to look at out there on the net. If people choose not to look, then that's their choice. This board is a discussion about Jack, his motives, his victims, anything to do with him. Being able to look at photos of his victims is helpful to me. Not because I want to look at dead people. But because I want to try to work out who Jack was and why he did what he did.

Yeah, I know, good luck, you're thinking.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Kind of sad really to think that the only photos of four of the C5 victims are their mortuary photographs. Whoever Jack the Ripper was has truly made them his 'property'.

As for the photos themselves, I think they're a good tool to use in order to try and figure out what kind of a man Jack was, as they are at the end of the day portraits and memories of what he did. These are the only things of 'his' that we can take a look at.

[Nothing to see]

I agree with you. These women unfortunately are only remembered because they are Jack's victims. I've seen a photo of Chapman with her husband but there just doesn't appear to be a lot of photo evidence available about the victims.

Like I said, I'm not really interested in looking at dead bodies. But whoever took Eddowes' photos before and after she was sown back together did a remarkable job. The detail is impressive. Let's face it, this was 121 years ago and he did a good job.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

But whoever took Eddowes' photos before and after she was sown back together did a remarkable job. The detail is impressive. Let's face it, this was 121 years ago and he did a good job.

Valid point. Though the authentic photo of her pegged up against the wall in the mortuary is quite nasty. Sadly (or should that be thankfully?) I can't find the full-sized version. It's somewhere in the Photo Archive, amongst the Eddowes section; it's the purple miniscule one but you can't really see anything in detail.

[Jdombrowski89]

Its possible that because of the quality of the photograph itself, it's hard to see until the other known close up of her face.

I find it curious though that none of the other victims were shown "in their entirety" like Miss Eddowes. Any suggestions as to a possible reason why?

Regards,
Justin

[Jdombrowski89]

I don't have a problem with looking at Eddowes' and Kelly's after death photos. Eddowes' at least I can see what she looked like and what Jack did to her. I've looked at Kelly's many times and it's just a blur with a body and an arm. Yes, I know I'm not looking at a color photo but it doesn't really give me any more info besides the fact that Jack really went berserk. I need the autopsy to know what he did, not that grainy photo.

Eddowes' photo shows the facial injuries. I look at that and I think, all that pent up rage after not being able to mutilate Stride. It also makes me think, just how much skill did Jack have?

There are far worse things to look at out there on the net. If people choose not to look, then that's their choice. This board is a discussion about Jack, his motives, his victims, anything to do with him. Being able to look at photos of his victims is helpful to me. Not because I want to look at dead people. But because I want to try to work out who Jack was and why he did what he did.

Yeah, I know, good luck, you're thinking.

Well it's not nessecarily just how much still. Think of it this way. You have someone who's a sexual psychopath. He has a chance to complete a killing. Imagine, after being interrupted, the major amount of impulses that drives him to continue. It's like working on an art masterpiece your determined to finish. You keep messing it up, of course your going to possibly be motivated enough to finish it. Well in the Ripper's case his urges were so powerful, he's more so in a frenzy when he reaches Eddowes. And I was surprised he was able to keep himself in check and not come off as suspicious whenever he met her.

Regards,
Justin

[prowling cat]

photos

Having read most (not all, so forgive me if I repeat someone else's post) of the thread, I don't want to go into any of the ethical issues, although they are of course very interesting, but out of curiosity I logged into wikipedia, and under 'catherine eddowes' found both photos reproduced, so that I do think that anyone who was odd enough to want to see the photos just to ogle some poor dead woman would have found them easily, without even having to navigate this message board.
This said, I can see the points made are all defensible. It is a pity we do not have photos of the living women for the files, sad to think they were so poor and unfortunate (in all senses of the word) not have had their photos taken, or kept by their families, and had to be victims to "earn" the right to one.
I seem to remember there are photos of Chapmanwith her husband, but correct me if I'm wrong, she's the only one.

[Fisherman]

Prowling Cat writes:

"I seem to remember there are photos of Chapmanwith her husband, but correct me if I'm wrong, she's the only one."

No correction needed, Prowler - Chapman is the only woman of the canonical five of whom we have a photo taken prior instead of after her encounter with her killer.

The best!
Fisherman

[Graham]

I don't think I'm any more sentimental than the next bloke, but I always get a catch in my throat when I see the photo of Annie Chapman and her husband. All clean and neat and tidy and respectable (and typically-Victorian po-faced) - perhaps not without a few cares in the world, but with no inkling that her life would end against a fence in the backyard of a dreadful, sleazy property in Hanbury Street. Oh what a falling-off was there...

Graham

[prowling cat]

Chapman Photo

Indeed, that's what personally I think would be so important, if we could now see these victims before they became slaughtered meat, it would give a deeper meaning to the horror of what happened than the postmortem photos cannot give us. This links to the issue of sensitivity and desensitivisation (I'm not sure I spelled it right, but I'm knackered, off to sleep) this thread has also dealt with.
Buona Notte
Cat

[Jeff Leahy]

http://www.amazon.com/Victims-Jack-Ripper-Stubbings-Shelden/dp/0978911296

Hi Fish

Picture of Annie Chapman in life. And of course a chance to purchase Neals excellent book..

Pirate

[Graham]

Annie was photographed alone - oops!

Graham

[Archaic]

The Chapman Family

Annie was photographed alone - oops!
Graham

Hi, Graham. You were right when you said Annie was photographed with her husband; he was standing to her side, but was cropped from the photo used on the bookcover. I agree with what you said about how touching it is to see her as a real person on her wedding day.

I think it's even sadder still to look at the photos of her children. The two little girls are all dolled up for their photos; obviously their parents were proud of them and loved them. One of the girls died very young- probably another reason Annie took to drink. And the other girl... can you imagine having to know what the Ripper did to your own mother? My God!

So many more people were 'victims' of Jack the Ripper than we sometimes remember.
I guess "collateral damage" is what they call it now.

Best regards, Archaic