The most important murder to solve?

[perrymason]

Hello folks,

The answer to the question of whether 2 or 3 killers might co-exist in such a small area and time frame is within the historical data alone, so we really need not debate whether anyone besides Jack would have the stomach for that kind of work. Clearly there were other(s), unless as Wickeman suggested, you intend to assoiciate all those deaths with a single killer Jack, not just the C5. And as Sam I and I agree with and many others also agree, there is at least one death within the "Canon" itself that shows no evidence of post mortem mutilation interest, and this death should be included with Jacks victims with caution. This may be a single murderer here.

If you look at all killings of unfortunates by knife in 88-89, then look at the ones that have post mortem mutilations, we are talking less than half of the killings. And excluded from that group but in that time frame would be someone, or more than one person, that had the stomach for sawing or cutting limbs and the head off a corpse. Twice.

I agree totally that the acts performed in room 13 required someone who could stomach the work, a very small percentage of any given population,.. but I do not agree that he had to have killed before, nor do I believe that there is any of the "precision" for lack of a better word that was evident in some earlier deaths, and those points and others....including the acts themselves, speaking to a killer who is unclear about what he wants, ...make me feel that the killer was known to Mary and he felt she had hurt him in some way. The abundance of appauling acts I believe indicates the killer sought to do as much Ripper type work as possible to ensure that the evidence pointed away from Marys circle.

Marys wounds could have been caused by a scared, panicked person who feared execution....and that might substitute for "the stomach" Jack had.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

The answer to the question of whether 2 or 3 killers might co-exist in such a small area and time frame is within the historical data alone

We can't trivialise what Jack the Ripper did to the extent of labelling him a mere "killer", Mike.

so we really need not debate whether anyone besides Jack would have the stomach for that kind of work.

Yes we do. The "kind of work" Jack did was extreme - one hesitates to use the word "specialised", but the elaborate evisceration murders of the Autumn of 1888 surely were.

Clearly there were other(s)

There weren't, Mike. One might think that the Torso Murders came close, but rendering cold bodies into anonymous torsos before disposal has a long pedigree as a practical means for a murderer to cover their tracks. The anonymisation of the body is usually the main object of the exercise, rather than gaining pleasure from removing the head and limbs. Even if it were, that's not the same sort of behaviour as exercising one's "evisceration fetish" on a still-warm-and-throbbing human being by a long way - what Jack did was far more extreme, and required a different "stomach" altogether.

[DVV]

Marys wounds could have been caused by a scared, panicked person who feared execution

Hello Mike,
I don't get you here. Do you mean that Mary's wounds were a desperate attempt to make any identification impossible?
If so, he shouldn't have killed her in her own room. And anyway, a woman was killed, so the risk of being executed was the same, whoever the victim was.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Hello Mike,
I don't get you here. Do you mean that Mary's wounds were a desperate attempt to make any identification impossible?
If so, he shouldn't have killed her in her own room. And anyway, a woman was killed, so the risk of being executed was the same, whoever the victim was.

Amitiés,
David

Hi David,

I mean its very possible that the killer took Marys live with a knife, unplanned and in a moment of anger or madness, ..then did the savage acts to replicate a monsters. Its also very possible that Mary knew him based on the existing evidence of that night, and that would be the reason for him to do the dirty work.

If, for example, a spurned lover who is mad, kills her then wishes to direct the blame on someone else,.....was there ever a better opportunity to do so? They were even including a woman with a single throat cut as one of Jacks. How hard would it be to make Mary look like a Jack victim? All he has to do is have the guts to do it...and being mad, and knowing that if they assume this murder is from her local circle he will likely be caught and hung, he deflects all blame onto the shoulders of an unknown assailant being creditted with virtually every unfortunate kill from Aug 88 to 89.

Sam, I dont differentiate the chopping up of a dead woman and the cutting up of one as being signs of two distinctive levels of monster. To cut a struggling human with a knife is one level of psychopath, to cut into a dead body with a knife is another... but.... to cut the body into sections is only marginally different than that, in terms of the level of violence and cold heartedness the perpetrator is able to call upon.

Best regards all.

[FutureM.D.]

no varying degrees of evil

In so far as gaining an insight into the killers psyche, I don't know how one could possibly place more importance on one victim over another. The progression is what tells the story, it show his evolution in so far as what he's capable of or willing to do. Mutilation is not some minor curiousity for him, it's his compulsion.

[perrymason]

In so far as gaining an insight into the killers psyche, I don't know how one could possibly place more importance on one victim over another. The progression is what tells the story, it show his evolution in so far as what he's capable of or willing to do. Mutilation is not some minor curiousity for him, it's his compulsion.

Hi Future MD,

You've missed the premise here, the disposition of the body or the injuries aside, its that this murder in Mitre Square contains more clues, more reputable first on scene sources, 2 potential police eyewitnesses and a witness that was suspected as being the one person that saw the killer they were calling Leather Apron a few weeks earlier.

My question is that would the fact that this murder seems to have the only believed sighting of Jack the Ripper in all 5 murders in it, and more police witnesses than any other, and a suspect who, by the timing alone, is almost certain to be her killer, make this murder more important "investigatorially" to solve?

If we solve this murder, weve identified the man they thought was Jack havent we?

Best regards

[Scott Nelson]

But, according to most Ripper experts, only John Pizer could have been Leather Apron. We can't ask Pizer if Mickeldy Joe was his friend, but my guess would be that he didn't know any such person, let alone did Pizer stay at no. Crossingham's Lodging House.

[perrymason]

But, according to most Ripper experts, only John Pizer could have been Leather Apron. We can't ask Pizer if Mickeldy Joe was his friend, but my guess would be that he didn't know any such person, let alone did Pizer stay at no. Crossingham's Lodging House.

I must be getting old, cause that skipped by me Scott.

If the comment about Pizer isnt a part of a joke, obviously The Whitechapel Murderer became Leather Apron, who then became Jack the Ripper, courtesy of a hoax letter.

Personally I always thought The Spitalfield Slasher would have been good. Isnt that the real link the women have?

The thread point is that based on memos, innuendo, and the facts concerning the estimate of Kates death time...which can be roughly confirmed thanks to the PC's passes, isnt the Mitre Square murder the one murder where the suspect seen with her by the Three Wisemen almost must be her killer? Isnt that the sighting that most people believe spawned the "only" real witness that saw the killer Jack?

Thats why I suggested it....so, weigh in if you like.

Cheers Scott

[Sara]

Why has it got to be two knifes? It could be a doubleheaded implement, maybe home made, like the type people make in prisons.

Possibly Jack on his first foray took two knives, not knowing quite what he would 'need' - psychologically that is. The impletments he had on that occasion were only good for stabbing, in the event - and he found when 'on the job' that stabbing didn't satisfy all his urges. That's why he left before 'finishing the job' in a way we might expect with the hidnsight of his later work.

But the next time, he had sought and bought the kind of knife he needed - for a ripping job. I'm as certain as one can be without proof or a confession that Tabram was Jack's - an exploratory kill which didn't quite do it for him, but which has enough similarities to make it impossible to dismiss as Jack's

I can't see any one killing as more important to solve than any other though

[Sara]

I've just spent a jolly evening reading up on the BTK killer Dennis Rader.
Part of the failure to catch him for so very long was the police refusal to believe that killings which didn't match his 'classic' pattern were his. if they had run through links etc to these other Wichita murders, his name might have surfaced sooner. Rader finally admitted to killings which had never been considered, so far removed were they form his core MO.

By the way reading his own accounts of the killings, it's notable what an atmosphere of panic some of them were carried through in - almost comically so, once the facts were known; whilst until he confessed, the killer was always considered to be totally cool, totally in control

Imo Stride and Tabram show sufficient likeness to Jack's MO to be probables.
Both took place in situations where he was in imminent danger of being caught, Tabram because it was relatively exposed and Stride because there were people about and possibly the sound of a cart approaching. they CANNOT be discounted on MO grounds alone

It's the investigators' collective prejudices which bedevil so many murder hunts.... surely we must all have learned this by now?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sara!

My impression of serial killers - naturally based on the articles I've read - is, that after the first killing they are shaky and nervous. When they don't get caught, the next one is easier...

Then they seem to develop a kind of cat and mouse -game for the crime investigators. Some of them have even felt a relief, while getting caught... So, terrible to say, maybe they develop a kind of mental addiction to their deeds?!

With the Ripper, I think the pattern could have been about the same; first shaky, second easier, etc.

What it comes to Stride and Tabram, I do include Stride to be the kind of "victim of interruption" category. With Tabram I am not quite convinced, but it's better to keep an open mind... I agree with you about the immediate danger with Stride. This situation could have convinced him about changing MO. Plus a probable feeling about the Vigilante Committee being on his heels amd very obviusly the girls on the streets of the East End becoming more cautious. The result leading to MJK, who probably thought herself to be safe indoors...

What it comes to the investigators prejudices, unfortunately they are human beings with a human factor!

All the best
Jukka