The most important murder to solve?

[sam]

Why has it got to be two knifes? It could be a doubleheaded implement, maybe home made, like the type people make in prisons.

[Fisherman]

It could be eight-headed for all we know, Sam - it´s just that I prefer to move with statistics here. Plus the multiheaded versions would be slightly awkward to tuck away, not to mention the risks involved stabbing away some fortyish times...

The best,
Fisherman

[Bailey]

I tend to agree that Tabram is non-canonical: the evidence points to a gang-rape gone even more wrong. I think the key is held in all of them - Mary Kelly's has the most evidence - the only one where the crime scene was photographed, and from two angles...

Hey Dlew919

I suspect you may have mixed Tabram with Emma Smith there?

B.

[perrymason]

Why has it got to be two knifes? It could be a doubleheaded implement, maybe home made, like the type people make in prisons.

Hi sam,

Im going to stick with a small "s" Sam if you dont mind, you did create the name that way, and we do have a Sam here that warrants the BIG S.

I think for only post 6, suggesting a double ended instrument is an excellent offering. Often the ideas sound very good and reasonable up front, but they just as often fail when tested, and Ill bet that you will be able to offer a few reasons off the top that make that suggestion possible but improbable in the near future.

First of all the length required,... to have an effifient buck/pen/jack knife at one end and the equivalent of a broad spike or bayonet at the other means an instrument likely a foot long to be practically used. Making it impratical.

And after 38 stabs with a jack/buck/pen knife, why flip the ends now? Surely she is done for already....

I think its very similar to a mercy killing of an animal. Most men, and some women, when faced with a dying animal on the road or in the wild will elect to end the animals life more humanely rather than leave it to suffer. So they will choose a method that is far more lethal than required at the time, only to be sure they dont have to hit it more than once, and so its as quick as possible for the animal. I think the bayonet is used like the large rock is used to mercy kill a mortally wounded squirrel.

Ill say without qualms that I am a huge animal lover, but I have done that to end the suffering of a chipmunk, after a chipmunk-great dane mismatch. The point being? I was on the scene after the assailant, I wasnt the assailant. Food for thought.

My best regards sam.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all after some time!

I personally think, that the mutilations on Kate's face were a rehearsal piece for the cuts on MJK.

So; that MJK knew the killer, doesn't mean she wasn't a familiar customer, Michael? The MJK murder taking place indoors may have been, that JtR didn't feel "safe" outside...

What makes this case interesting to me, is, that; if we think, that the odd behaviour of the pony of mr. Diemschutz was due to the Ripper still being there, someone could have seen Jacky moving towards Mitre Square!


OK, in this CE case the description about the possible Man Himself is very accurate!

All the best
Jukka

[sam]

Im fine with little (s) I wont be posting that much, I got interested in JTR when I was 10, my dad took me on a JTR tour one Winters evening and the old school house scared the hell out of me it looked so creepy, even then the alleys were full of tramps, drunks, women of the night (selling horizontal refreshment) etc.. my sister even tripped over a homeless guy who was sprawled out drunk in the middle of a dark alley, everyone just stepped over him. I have recently read Sugden's book and Paul Begg's book, I originally thought JTR was Chapman then Tumblety and now Im thinking Kosminski although I wouldnt be surprised if there were 2 people, 1 lookout. One last thing... I went for a job interview last week and the building turned out to be next to Mitre Square! I didnt get the job though.

I was thinking of designing a JTR board game, has anyone ever done this?

[Stephen Thomas]

I was thinking of designing a JTR board game, has anyone ever done this?

Yes...........

[perrymason]

Hi again sam,

My personal favourite has always been The Complete Jack the Ripper by Mr Sugden. I like it because he doesnt seek to name a killer. I think part of the allure is that we dont have to have a face to make this study interesting...nobody who studies or researches seriously seems miffed at that either. I would think the most knowledgable author though, ... on the period, police and protocols, is Stewart Evans.

Interesting idea on a game board, my guess is yes, but maybe someone knows for sure.

Heres my amateur take on whats the best way to approach the cases from a study point of view, ...dont bother with any suspects for a while. Get the facts and the feel of each individual case and its nuances, treat them investigatorially as individual murders, and perhaps one suspect will fit the profile created by the murders themselves, you wont have a murder that you are attempting to fit into a suspects profile.

Best regards sam.

[harry]

Michael,
I was for some years in law enforcement,but not the police force.However there are parallel methods of procedure which help,but in the main it is a matter of common sense.It is my strong opinion that Kelly was killed by JTR.
The mutilations alone are a pointer.That they are more extreme can be accepted as the killer had more time.Having lived the first years of my life in a court almost identical to Millers Court,I do not see the murder scene as presenting the danger some posters assume.Once inside that room there was little fear of interuption.She was living alone,a factor that to me has significance,for who else but a small number of neighbours and aquaintances would know that Barnett had moved out,and had not been replaced.Situated as the room was,it is unthinkable that a chance killer went trying door handles in expectation of a victim.Your own estimation of an aquaintance who was invited or let in by the victim is sound,and the added availability of the window as a means of gaining entry,all point more to a killer known to that particular person,one who had a sound knowledge of the neighbourhood,
and knew enough of its unfortunates,to select only of that kind.
Best regards.

[perrymason]

Michael,
I was for some years in law enforcement,but not the police force.However there are parallel methods of procedure which help,but in the main it is a matter of common sense.It is my strong opinion that Kelly was killed by JTR.
The mutilations alone are a pointer.That they are more extreme can be accepted as the killer had more time.Having lived the first years of my life in a court almost identical to Millers Court,I do not see the murder scene as presenting the danger some posters assume.Once inside that room there was little fear of interuption.She was living alone,a factor that to me has significance,for who else but a small number of neighbours and aquaintances would know that Barnett had moved out,and had not been replaced.Situated as the room was,it is unthinkable that a chance killer went trying door handles in expectation of a victim.Your own estimation of an aquaintance who was invited or let in by the victim is sound,and the added availability of the window as a means of gaining entry,all point more to a killer known to that particular person,one who had a sound knowledge of the neighbourhood,
and knew enough of its unfortunates,to select only of that kind.
Best regards.

Hi Harry,

My apologies for confusing your background. I do think you have sound reasoning there, and the experiences in similar surroundings yourself does offer us a valid opinion on how safe the murderer might feel in Marys room.

I believe where I deviate from your suppositions is in the notion that the killer would have sought a victim indoors, that the damage done to the body resembles anything similar to the ones that doctors observed showed signs of "targetting" and of anatomical knowledge in the cutting, and that the killer known as Jack the Ripper came from Marys close circle of "admirers".

On the first point, it had been the longest interval between killings, ...addressing the sense of imminent danger he might feel had he continued outdoors at that moment in time, we have no way of knowing yet whether his choice to kill outdoors in ALL the other cases was part of what he sought to accomplish....he had ample access to abandoned houses, warehouse space, or his own small room if he worked but never chose to use any of those locations, and based on the evidence that we can trust, in order for him to get into Marys room he had to go there by himself, as we dont have a trustworthy account she ever left her room after her and Blotchy Face entered it. Something which in all liklihood demands that they have a prior relationship, for him to be let in or gain access himself and not have Mary screaming "bloody murder"..."rather than "oh-".

On the damage done to Mary, yes the vehicle is the same in this hit and run, a very sharp knife, but how it is used and what it does do not resemble the wounds the others had. You may say they are more severe, as they were, due to his comfort level staying in that room...but they are also acts without any comprehendable goals, very unlike the cuts to womens abdomens that were needed to extract organs. The placement of organs about her, the stripping of only one thigh completely of flesh to the knee,...the remaining thigh only stripped on the inside, the sloppy slashing that leaves Marys face so damaged, ....none of these acts resemble anything done by the killer previously...save the colon section alledgedly placed between Kates arm and body. All the intestinal removal and placements were very likely just to get them away from his work space.

On the last point, using the existing data which we agree leans towards an acquaintence of Mary Jane's, there is nothing in that data, until she has been seen murdered, to suggest that the man is also Jack the Ripper.

That he goes there himself and either lets himself in or she does only suggests that they were known to each other. After her state in death is known, then the Ripper becomes possible. But he may not have picked her up while she was working the streets....as we surmise he did with all 4 others,....he may have had to figure a way into the room himself, ...a problem he never had when seeking weak animals among the flock on the streets, and this would be the first case within the Canonicals that offered a direct link between victim and killer.....something that after 120 years is unworkable still.

What was done to Mary, to my amateur eye, resembles a panicked killer trying desperately to remember what he has read and heard of the early killings and tries unsuccesfully to duplicate all those actions. What he neglected though was the evidence in those wounds that suggested purpose....meaning. Up until Mary he cut to kill and take organs while they were semi or unconscious, slitting the throat left to right very likely from beside or above them, perhaps from behind,almost certainly a right handed killer ...then a left handed knifesman attacks with the knife, doesnt subdue the victim first, and she resists leaving defensive wounds on her hands. After which he spends perhaps anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour cutting Mary up and placing her bits about.

The murderer in Millers Court tried to pin Marys death on Jack the Ripper, and for many, he was successful. What keeps me from accepting this idea is that the ONLY resemblance that the Millers Court murder had to the others was that she was cut up. And since someone is cutting up people to make Torsos, which is someone not Jack most likely, and since someone kills and guts a woman much like Jack does the following year and the victim is not thought to be in a new Canon of 6, I feel safe in suggesting that not only Jack the Ripper killed and cut up unfortunate women during that period.

My best regards Harry

[Sam Flynn]

the ONLY resemblance that the Millers Court murder had to the others was that she was cut up.

She'd had her entrails pulled out and internal organs removed, Mike. Whoever did it was a very different kind of animal from your "normal" murderer, or even your "normal" torso-killer, and an extremely rare animal at that. If there was someone else, other than the Ripper, who felt even remotely inclined to inflict that sort of damage on a fellow human being - in the same small geographical area, within a period of mere weeks to boot - then why haven't we seen this aberrant behaviour more often? That one person perpetrated the Ripper crimes is hard enough to explain or understand; suggesting that there were more than one operating at the same time requires a suspension of reason.

[perrymason]

She'd had her entrails pulled out and internal organs removed, Mike. Whoever did it was a very different kind of animal from your "normal" murderer, or even your "normal" torso-killer, and an extremely rare animal at that. If there was someone else, other than the Ripper, who felt even remotely inclined to inflict that sort of damage on a fellow human being - in the same small geographical area, within a period of mere weeks to boot - then why haven't we seen this aberrant behaviour more often? That one person perpetrated the Ripper crimes is hard enough to explain or understand; suggesting that there were more than one operating at the same time requires a suspension of reason.

Hi Sam,

Im surprised to see you suggest a position that clearly cannot be accurate...that more than one killer running around cutting up women at that time requires a "suspension" of reason. In actuality all that is required to disprove that is reading a list of the women who were assaulted with a knife during the relevant years. You may say, "well they have to show the mutilations and eviscerations"....Oh, did Elizabeth Stride show those activities?

The facts are that someone likely not Jack did almost to the letter what "Jack" would have done in the case of Alice Mackenzie, ...very likely a different someone stabbed Martha Tabram to death, there was a Torso found in early October that was determined to have been created before Annie Chapmans murder, another killer.........Annie, Rose, The Pinchin St Torso the next year....all by one man, or three?

There is no doubt that there were other men killing other unfortunates with knives at that very same place and time, and in some cases the murders involved cutting the bodies and internal organs.

The notion that this killer had the entire city to himself and no other sick individual could possibly have done things like those Jack did...at the same time, usually comes from those who havent been following along very closely.

Best regards.

[Wickerman]

...The murderer in Millers Court tried to pin Marys death on Jack the Ripper, and for many, he was successful. What keeps me from accepting this idea is that the ONLY resemblance that the Millers Court murder had to the others was that she was cut up. And since someone is cutting up people to make Torsos, which is someone not Jack most likely, and since someone kills and guts a woman much like Jack does the following year and the victim is not thought to be in a new Canon of 6, I feel safe in suggesting that not only Jack the Ripper killed and cut up unfortunate women during that period....

In general I would agree. Kelly should not be automatically assumed to have fallen victim to the same killer who took the lives of Nichols, Chapman, & Eddowes. I've given my reasons elsewhere on that and I'm reasonably confident that whoever killed Tabram/Turner was not the same person(s) as already spoken of above. So how many killers are we dealing with, two possibly three?
The killings of Stride & Coles appear very similar, a quick slash & run, not at all similar to what has gone before.
McKenzie may have been a copycat, which means another killer.
Then of course there's the Torso series. The idea one individual is responsible for all these localized killings is about as ridiculous as arguing that there were six killers all loose in this small corner of the city.
The truth must lie somewhere in-between - three killers?

In conclusion, I would have to say that I would not automatically exclude the Torso killings from the Ripper any more than I would automatically include Kelly as a Ripper victim.
By 'Ripper' I am designating the killer of Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes as 'Ripper' killings, - but even that assumption is arguable.
I guess I would have to say there is no single one important murder to solve, anymore than anyone suggesting the 'first' murder, .... how can we know who was 'first' unless we can correctly attribute any group of killings to any one individual?

To a point this has been done by some. The murders of Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes have been seen to show the most resemblances by way of signature, that is to say actions taken by the killer not directly concerning how the victim lost her life - but still an arguable point.
That there are more similarities between certain details of the murders of these three victims is certain, but it doesn't mean the same killer 'only' killed these three.

An afterthought...possibly thee most important murder of the Whitechapel series to solve is that of Mary Kelly. My reasoning is twofold;
1) That it is because of this murder that most of the ridiculous theories have been espoused.
2) This murder, if included in the Ripper series, takes away any practical argument as to motive for the previous murders of Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes.
The murder of Mary Kelly has caused more confusion and drivvel to be written about the Whitechapel murders than anything else.

regards, Jon

[Sam Flynn]

You may say, "well they have to show the mutilations and eviscerations"....Oh, did Elizabeth Stride show those activities?

Well, I exclude Stride personally - for various reasons, among them the lack of mutilations. But that's beside the point. The point is that the existence of the aberrant behaviour of opening up someone's abdomen, eviscerating and the taking away their organs cannot be reduced to mere "cutting-up" by any reasonable definition of the term. Stride apart, the fact that four instances of this extreme behaviour turns up in the same part of town, within a few weeks, just cannot be explained away in terms of "anyone could do it".

[harry]

We do not know the extent of the killer's ambitions,therefor the difference shown in the mutilations does not mean a great deal.That the killer's interest lay with what was inside the abdomen appears self evident,and so I would hazard a guess that the stripping of flesh from the thighs had a similar intent,to access what was beyond the outer flesh.The fact that Kelly's murder took place in an enclosed room can be put down to opportunism,and the location Millers Court evidence of a more than casual knowledge of the place,it's occupant and her circumstances.I would say the same intent was present with other victims,but the time factor was not sufficient and in Tabram's case,the first in the series of killings,lack of preparation and experience,a cause of failure to even remotely achieve what he desired.
My opinion,but I go for the simplistic explanation.