The most important murder to solve?

[Sam Flynn]

the ONLY resemblance that the Millers Court murder had to the others was that she was cut up.

She'd had her entrails pulled out and internal organs removed, Mike. Whoever did it was a very different kind of animal from your "normal" murderer, or even your "normal" torso-killer, and an extremely rare animal at that. If there was someone else, other than the Ripper, who felt even remotely inclined to inflict that sort of damage on a fellow human being - in the same small geographical area, within a period of mere weeks to boot - then why haven't we seen this aberrant behaviour more often? That one person perpetrated the Ripper crimes is hard enough to explain or understand; suggesting that there were more than one operating at the same time requires a suspension of reason.

Michael,
I was for some years in law enforcement,but not the police force.However there are parallel methods of procedure which help,but in the main it is a matter of common sense.It is my strong opinion that Kelly was killed by JTR.
The mutilations alone are a pointer.That they are more extreme can be accepted as the killer had more time.Having lived the first years of my life in a court almost identical to Millers Court,I do not see the murder scene as presenting the danger some posters assume.Once inside that room there was little fear of interuption.She was living alone,a factor that to me has significance,for who else but a small number of neighbours and aquaintances would know that Barnett had moved out,and had not been replaced.Situated as the room was,it is unthinkable that a chance killer went trying door handles in expectation of a victim.Your own estimation of an aquaintance who was invited or let in by the victim is sound,and the added availability of the window as a means of gaining entry,all point more to a killer known to that particular person,one who had a sound knowledge of the neighbourhood,
and knew enough of its unfortunates,to select only of that kind.
Best regards.

Hi Harry,

My apologies for confusing your background. I do think you have sound reasoning there, and the experiences in similar surroundings yourself does offer us a valid opinion on how safe the murderer might feel in Marys room.

I believe where I deviate from your suppositions is in the notion that the killer would have sought a victim indoors, that the damage done to the body resembles anything similar to the ones that doctors observed showed signs of "targetting" and of anatomical knowledge in the cutting, and that the killer known as Jack the Ripper came from Marys close circle of "admirers".

On the first point, it had been the longest interval between killings, ...addressing the sense of imminent danger he might feel had he continued outdoors at that moment in time, we have no way of knowing yet whether his choice to kill outdoors in ALL the other cases was part of what he sought to accomplish....he had ample access to abandoned houses, warehouse space, or his own small room if he worked but never chose to use any of those locations, and based on the evidence that we can trust, in order for him to get into Marys room he had to go there by himself, as we dont have a trustworthy account she ever left her room after her and Blotchy Face entered it. Something which in all liklihood demands that they have a prior relationship, for him to be let in or gain access himself and not have Mary screaming "bloody murder"..."rather than "oh-".

On the damage done to Mary, yes the vehicle is the same in this hit and run, a very sharp knife, but how it is used and what it does do not resemble the wounds the others had. You may say they are more severe, as they were, due to his comfort level staying in that room...but they are also acts without any comprehendable goals, very unlike the cuts to womens abdomens that were needed to extract organs. The placement of organs about her, the stripping of only one thigh completely of flesh to the knee,...the remaining thigh only stripped on the inside, the sloppy slashing that leaves Marys face so damaged, ....none of these acts resemble anything done by the killer previously...save the colon section alledgedly placed between Kates arm and body. All the intestinal removal and placements were very likely just to get them away from his work space.

On the last point, using the existing data which we agree leans towards an acquaintence of Mary Jane's, there is nothing in that data, until she has been seen murdered, to suggest that the man is also Jack the Ripper.

That he goes there himself and either lets himself in or she does only suggests that they were known to each other. After her state in death is known, then the Ripper becomes possible. But he may not have picked her up while she was working the streets....as we surmise he did with all 4 others,....he may have had to figure a way into the room himself, ...a problem he never had when seeking weak animals among the flock on the streets, and this would be the first case within the Canonicals that offered a direct link between victim and killer.....something that after 120 years is unworkable still.

What was done to Mary, to my amateur eye, resembles a panicked killer trying desperately to remember what he has read and heard of the early killings and tries unsuccesfully to duplicate all those actions. What he neglected though was the evidence in those wounds that suggested purpose....meaning. Up until Mary he cut to kill and take organs while they were semi or unconscious, slitting the throat left to right very likely from beside or above them, perhaps from behind,almost certainly a right handed killer ...then a left handed knifesman attacks with the knife, doesnt subdue the victim first, and she resists leaving defensive wounds on her hands. After which he spends perhaps anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour cutting Mary up and placing her bits about.

The murderer in Millers Court tried to pin Marys death on Jack the Ripper, and for many, he was successful. What keeps me from accepting this idea is that the ONLY resemblance that the Millers Court murder had to the others was that she was cut up. And since someone is cutting up people to make Torsos, which is someone not Jack most likely, and since someone kills and guts a woman much like Jack does the following year and the victim is not thought to be in a new Canon of 6, I feel safe in suggesting that not only Jack the Ripper killed and cut up unfortunate women during that period.

My best regards Harry

[harry]

Michael,
I was for some years in law enforcement,but not the police force.However there are parallel methods of procedure which help,but in the main it is a matter of common sense.It is my strong opinion that Kelly was killed by JTR.
The mutilations alone are a pointer.That they are more extreme can be accepted as the killer had more time.Having lived the first years of my life in a court almost identical to Millers Court,I do not see the murder scene as presenting the danger some posters assume.Once inside that room there was little fear of interuption.She was living alone,a factor that to me has significance,for who else but a small number of neighbours and aquaintances would know that Barnett had moved out,and had not been replaced.Situated as the room was,it is unthinkable that a chance killer went trying door handles in expectation of a victim.Your own estimation of an aquaintance who was invited or let in by the victim is sound,and the added availability of the window as a means of gaining entry,all point more to a killer known to that particular person,one who had a sound knowledge of the neighbourhood,
and knew enough of its unfortunates,to select only of that kind.
Best regards.

Hi again sam,

My personal favourite has always been The Complete Jack the Ripper by Mr Sugden. I like it because he doesnt seek to name a killer. I think part of the allure is that we dont have to have a face to make this study interesting...nobody who studies or researches seriously seems miffed at that either. I would think the most knowledgable author though, ... on the period, police and protocols, is Stewart Evans.

Interesting idea on a game board, my guess is yes, but maybe someone knows for sure.

Heres my amateur take on whats the best way to approach the cases from a study point of view, ...dont bother with any suspects for a while. Get the facts and the feel of each individual case and its nuances, treat them investigatorially as individual murders, and perhaps one suspect will fit the profile created by the murders themselves, you wont have a murder that you are attempting to fit into a suspects profile.

Best regards sam.

[Stephen Thomas]

I was thinking of designing a JTR board game, has anyone ever done this?

Yes...........

[sam]

Im fine with little (s) I wont be posting that much, I got interested in JTR when I was 10, my dad took me on a JTR tour one Winters evening and the old school house scared the hell out of me it looked so creepy, even then the alleys were full of tramps, drunks, women of the night (selling horizontal refreshment) etc.. my sister even tripped over a homeless guy who was sprawled out drunk in the middle of a dark alley, everyone just stepped over him. I have recently read Sugden's book and Paul Begg's book, I originally thought JTR was Chapman then Tumblety and now Im thinking Kosminski although I wouldnt be surprised if there were 2 people, 1 lookout. One last thing... I went for a job interview last week and the building turned out to be next to Mitre Square! I didnt get the job though.

I was thinking of designing a JTR board game, has anyone ever done this?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all after some time!

I personally think, that the mutilations on Kate's face were a rehearsal piece for the cuts on MJK.

So; that MJK knew the killer, doesn't mean she wasn't a familiar customer, Michael? The MJK murder taking place indoors may have been, that JtR didn't feel "safe" outside...

What makes this case interesting to me, is, that; if we think, that the odd behaviour of the pony of mr. Diemschutz was due to the Ripper still being there, someone could have seen Jacky moving towards Mitre Square!


OK, in this CE case the description about the possible Man Himself is very accurate!

All the best
Jukka

Why has it got to be two knifes? It could be a doubleheaded implement, maybe home made, like the type people make in prisons.

Hi sam,

Im going to stick with a small "s" Sam if you dont mind, you did create the name that way, and we do have a Sam here that warrants the BIG S.

I think for only post 6, suggesting a double ended instrument is an excellent offering. Often the ideas sound very good and reasonable up front, but they just as often fail when tested, and Ill bet that you will be able to offer a few reasons off the top that make that suggestion possible but improbable in the near future.

First of all the length required,... to have an effifient buck/pen/jack knife at one end and the equivalent of a broad spike or bayonet at the other means an instrument likely a foot long to be practically used. Making it impratical.

And after 38 stabs with a jack/buck/pen knife, why flip the ends now? Surely she is done for already....

I think its very similar to a mercy killing of an animal. Most men, and some women, when faced with a dying animal on the road or in the wild will elect to end the animals life more humanely rather than leave it to suffer. So they will choose a method that is far more lethal than required at the time, only to be sure they dont have to hit it more than once, and so its as quick as possible for the animal. I think the bayonet is used like the large rock is used to mercy kill a mortally wounded squirrel.

Ill say without qualms that I am a huge animal lover, but I have done that to end the suffering of a chipmunk, after a chipmunk-great dane mismatch. The point being? I was on the scene after the assailant, I wasnt the assailant. Food for thought.

My best regards sam.

[Bailey]

I tend to agree that Tabram is non-canonical: the evidence points to a gang-rape gone even more wrong. I think the key is held in all of them - Mary Kelly's has the most evidence - the only one where the crime scene was photographed, and from two angles...

Hey Dlew919

I suspect you may have mixed Tabram with Emma Smith there?

B.

[Fisherman]

It could be eight-headed for all we know, Sam - it´s just that I prefer to move with statistics here. Plus the multiheaded versions would be slightly awkward to tuck away, not to mention the risks involved stabbing away some fortyish times...

The best,
Fisherman

[sam]

Why has it got to be two knifes? It could be a doubleheaded implement, maybe home made, like the type people make in prisons.

[Fisherman]

dlew919 writes:

"...Tabram is non-canonical: the evidence points to a gang-rape gone even more wrong."

A gang-rape? And noone heard anything? And Killeen reported: "From appearances, there was no reason to suppose that recent intimacy had taken place."

Two different blades do not necessarily tell a tale of gang-rape, I´m afraid. I see very little reason to ponder that possibility at all.

The best,
Fisherman

I would have to say the murder of Kelly had the best chance of producing a solution,for several reasons.First and foremost of course,a witness that investigated thoughoughly,might have been proven a liar.Secondly, it differed from the others as a means of approach to the victim.Being indoors,it favoured a small group who might know of an access via the window,information that was denied to most.It also afforded a means of access to the victim without the need to be seen in her company.It would though, imply familiarity.These two factors,I believe,at least narrowed the range of suspects. Millers Court,situated in what might be termed the heart of the murder zone,pointed more strongly to a suspect living local,since the murderer ,after some months still tended to favour that zone.So this murder,in my opinion,does offer a few direct avenues of investigation.

Hi Harry,

I personally agree with you that the murder in Millers Court left us residual clues that may well be able to narrow the investigations focus on a group of individuals...and I agree also that this group would be people known to Mary Kelly....what I have an issue with is the thought that solving this particular murder provides us with "Jack's" identity.

For the reasons you mentioned and more, there is a real possibility that Mary's killer was let in by her, or entered and was allowed to stay....leaving us with that group of suspects...Mary's male friends and acquaintences. But there is no suggestion in that alone that the killer is also likely the Ripper. That conjecture comes after the body's wounds are factored into the circumstantial evidence available.

I know you were a policeman for many years Harry, so Im asking you, based on the evidence that we know exists, can we say that Mary Kellys killing....the whole murder, not just the knife use, leaves us with the impression she must have been murdered by Jack?

My contention is that using that as the criteria....which murder gives us evidence that we, and the contemporary officers, believe relates to Jack the Rippers identity?

As I said, in Kates case we have a suspect seen with her as close to the time of her death as the suspect of the earlier death that night was seen, ...closer to the time in fact. He is very probably her killer. Then using the crime scene analysis and victim details we see signs of Jack the Ripper. Who also we believe approaches his victims like Sailor Hat may have approached his.

We know, or strongly suspect, that Joseph Lawende is the witness that the investigators believed saw the killer known as Jack the Ripper. The throat slitting abdominal mutilator.

There is a piece of the crime scene that is found around 10 minutes walk from the murder scene heading slightly North East, giving us the evidence that the killer very likely came that way after leaving the scene, we assume, heading home.

What Im differentiating is that in Marys case, we have certain evidence that is suggestive of a relationship of some kind between the deceased and her killer....in Kates case, we have evidence that is suggestive that she is killed by the man who was called Jack the Ripper, a man suspected of multiple murder and who was seen by a witness with the victim.. just prior to the murder.

Its fairly certain that Police believed that witness and that murder related directly to the search for Jack the Ripper, based on the acquistion, actions and interactions with the corpse,.... whereas Marys murder investigation and witnesses, the accreditted ones at this point in time, provide us with a viable theory that she knew her killer well enough to bring him to her room, or for him to come there alone.....(if just for paid sex, I might add the ONLY such time we would have of that on record...she was a street worker, like Mary Ann).

Its what her killer does to her that suggests Jack the Ripper...whereas with Kate, all the elements that we believe exist in the killers MO are present, including the post mortem mutilations, which are focussed from the pubis to the breast bone.

My best regards Harry

[dlew919]

I tend to agree that Tabram is non-canonical: the evidence points to a gang-rape gone even more wrong. I think the key is held in all of them - Mary Kelly's has the most evidence - the only one where the crime scene was photographed, and from two angles...

[harry]

I would have to say the murder of Kelly had the best chance of producing a solution,for several reasons.First and foremost of course,a witness that investigated thoughoughly,might have been proven a liar.Secondly, it differed from the others as a means of approach to the victim.Being indoors,it favoured a small group who might know of an access via the window,information that was denied to most.It also afforded a means of access to the victim without the need to be seen in her company.It would though, imply familiarity.These two factors,I believe,at least narrowed the range of suspects. Millers Court,situated in what might be termed the heart of the murder zone,pointed more strongly to a suspect living local,since the murderer ,after some months still tended to favour that zone.So this murder,in my opinion,does offer a few direct avenues of investigation.