The most important murder to solve?

[Guest]

Hello all,

I suppose that everyone who studies these crimes feels even subconsciously that one of the murders is more important to figure out than the others. For some, its the first in a series, for others its the abrupt end in Millers Court, for others its the busy and mysterious night of Sept 30th.

For me, in terms of evidentiary value, the killing in Mitre Square, no more or less complex or confusing than at least 3 other women in the series in terms of actions taken, offers us the best opportunity to have a peek at the real killer they called "Jack the Ripper".

Not to say he was Jack for certain, just that this murder offers us....

-a witnessed suspect with the victim so close to the time of her death that he almost must be her killer
-its the first and only of all 5 investigations that begins with a police officer finding the body first, allowing us to trust the evidence and initial positions indicated
-its the first and only crime scene that extends beyond its immediate area and jurisdiction via the apron section in Goulston, allowing us to perhaps trace an escape route home
-and its rumoured to be the murder that produces an eyewitness suspect description so close to the time of the victims death, that he is believed to have seen "Jack" and is later used a few times to view suspected Ripper candidates. Perhaps even chose not to identify one he recognized.

Its the only City murder, the only murder that had policemen in abundance from the outset of the discovery, the only victim to my knowledge that is sketched in place by a medical official, and the only murder of all 5 that is the second one in a single night.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether they concur,..or disagree...or have facts to add?

My best regards to all.

[Fisherman]

The second murder on that night...? Thatīs blasphemy, Michael, and you well know it!

To me, there is only one answer to your question: The Tabram slaying. It tells us a lot of the manīs psychology and it shows us how he adapted to the circumstances given as he went along. To me, it represents the rise of the Ripper. The rest is just more stations along the same track, more or less - until he reached Millerīs Court. Now, THAT was a different thing altogether I should think.

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

What about Mylett,McKenzie and Coles, all discovered by policemen.

Personally, I feel Hanbury St holds the key. It`s the 05.15 am pick up of Chapman.

[perrymason]

Hi Fisherman,

From a psychological standpoint, I can see why you have such interest in Martha, if she was the commencement victim. For me though that murder is interesing primarily for the enjoyment the killer obviously received from stabbing flesh, and I dont see that as a focal interest in any other of the Canonicals myself.

The point thread wise though, is that there is hardly anything that can be used as evidence against a suspect seen with her,other than a military type weapon being used once, there is no witness that sees her at all within an hour prior to her death likely, and there is no evidence that can be used to determine where he might have gone after killing her, and she was not found by a policeman..who is trained in leaving the scene untouched. Polly's clothing was altered by passers by, Liz Strides pulse was taken by passers by, Annie was found by a resident in the house....we cant know if any of those women were moved, or anything altered regarding the physical evidence at the scene. Heck...if there had been a 5 L note in any of the hands of the women I just mentioned, do you think it would still be there when the police finally arrived?

Best regards Fisherman.

[perrymason]

Fair point Jon, but none of those three are Canonicals, and as such, are not assumed to be the victims of the single killer Jack the Ripper.

For my money, Alice's death had more in common with Jack than Liz's did, but I'm just an amateur I guess.

Cheers Jon.

[Fisherman]

Well, Michael, itīs just that I have a feeling that he tuned his instrument in George Yard ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

I broadly agree with everything you say, but these...

its rumoured to be the murder that produces an eyewitness suspect description so close to the time of the victims death, that he is believed to have seen "Jack" and is later used a few times to view suspected Ripper candidates. Perhaps even chose not to identify one he recognized... Its the only City murder, the only murder that had policemen in abundance from the outset of the discovery, the only victim to my knowledge that is sketched in place by a medical official, and the only murder of all 5 that is the second one in a single night.

...are somewhat incidental, and arguably extraneous to the murder itself.

[sdreid]

I think, in general, the most important murders to solve in a serial are the first, the second and the last. She's probably none of those though there's a slim chance she could have been the last. In that case, you have to ask why the killer stopped with her.

[perrymason]

Hi Stan, Sam, all....

I get your problem with some of the inclusions at the end Sam, I suppose I used them to isolate this one murder better, but on the idea that the witness who saw the suspect with Kate is believed to have seen "the" killer, I would stick with.

We have a senior investigative opinion that the only person who saw Jack was "a city PC near Mitre Square",...obviously incorrect in part at least but perhaps not wholly, we have what is widely believed to be the witness who alledgedly "refused" to identify a suspect believed to be Jack the Ripper as being almost certainly Lawende, a witness who is called to identify suspects perhaps 2 or 3 times, years later in one case......and the nearest to the "time of the murder/ suspect and victim sighting" of a Canonical victim who is killed in the manner associated with Jack the Ripper specifically.

It would seem the police thought Lawende saw Jack the Ripper.

All the best Sam.

[Fisherman]

Stan writes:

"I think, in general, the most important murders to solve in a serial are the first, the second and the last."

Agreed, Stan! To my mind, that leaves us with Tabram, Nichols and Kelly, and yes, they would provide all the keys required to reach a fair understanding of how and why the murders started, in what direction they developed and how and why they stopped.

The ones left out, Chapman and Eddowes, could be described as the most archetypical Ripper killings, and that of course has itīs merits when it comes to trying to understand the deeds. But the fact remains that they both represent sort of a "frozen" MO, and tell us comparatively little of what was going on.

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi all,
the Millwood and Wilson cases may also be relevant. Unsuccessful (or "half unsuccessful") indoors assaults, which would have prompted the killer to change his MO.
Then, when the streets became too risky, he stopped killing in October. In November, he got the opportunity to work indoors, successfully this time.
Amitiés,
David

[harry]

I would have to say the murder of Kelly had the best chance of producing a solution,for several reasons.First and foremost of course,a witness that investigated thoughoughly,might have been proven a liar.Secondly, it differed from the others as a means of approach to the victim.Being indoors,it favoured a small group who might know of an access via the window,information that was denied to most.It also afforded a means of access to the victim without the need to be seen in her company.It would though, imply familiarity.These two factors,I believe,at least narrowed the range of suspects. Millers Court,situated in what might be termed the heart of the murder zone,pointed more strongly to a suspect living local,since the murderer ,after some months still tended to favour that zone.So this murder,in my opinion,does offer a few direct avenues of investigation.

[dlew919]

I tend to agree that Tabram is non-canonical: the evidence points to a gang-rape gone even more wrong. I think the key is held in all of them - Mary Kelly's has the most evidence - the only one where the crime scene was photographed, and from two angles...

[perrymason]

I would have to say the murder of Kelly had the best chance of producing a solution,for several reasons.First and foremost of course,a witness that investigated thoughoughly,might have been proven a liar.Secondly, it differed from the others as a means of approach to the victim.Being indoors,it favoured a small group who might know of an access via the window,information that was denied to most.It also afforded a means of access to the victim without the need to be seen in her company.It would though, imply familiarity.These two factors,I believe,at least narrowed the range of suspects. Millers Court,situated in what might be termed the heart of the murder zone,pointed more strongly to a suspect living local,since the murderer ,after some months still tended to favour that zone.So this murder,in my opinion,does offer a few direct avenues of investigation.

Hi Harry,

I personally agree with you that the murder in Millers Court left us residual clues that may well be able to narrow the investigations focus on a group of individuals...and I agree also that this group would be people known to Mary Kelly....what I have an issue with is the thought that solving this particular murder provides us with "Jack's" identity.

For the reasons you mentioned and more, there is a real possibility that Mary's killer was let in by her, or entered and was allowed to stay....leaving us with that group of suspects...Mary's male friends and acquaintences. But there is no suggestion in that alone that the killer is also likely the Ripper. That conjecture comes after the body's wounds are factored into the circumstantial evidence available.

I know you were a policeman for many years Harry, so Im asking you, based on the evidence that we know exists, can we say that Mary Kellys killing....the whole murder, not just the knife use, leaves us with the impression she must have been murdered by Jack?

My contention is that using that as the criteria....which murder gives us evidence that we, and the contemporary officers, believe relates to Jack the Rippers identity?

As I said, in Kates case we have a suspect seen with her as close to the time of her death as the suspect of the earlier death that night was seen, ...closer to the time in fact. He is very probably her killer. Then using the crime scene analysis and victim details we see signs of Jack the Ripper. Who also we believe approaches his victims like Sailor Hat may have approached his.

We know, or strongly suspect, that Joseph Lawende is the witness that the investigators believed saw the killer known as Jack the Ripper. The throat slitting abdominal mutilator.

There is a piece of the crime scene that is found around 10 minutes walk from the murder scene heading slightly North East, giving us the evidence that the killer very likely came that way after leaving the scene, we assume, heading home.

What Im differentiating is that in Marys case, we have certain evidence that is suggestive of a relationship of some kind between the deceased and her killer....in Kates case, we have evidence that is suggestive that she is killed by the man who was called Jack the Ripper, a man suspected of multiple murder and who was seen by a witness with the victim.. just prior to the murder.

Its fairly certain that Police believed that witness and that murder related directly to the search for Jack the Ripper, based on the acquistion, actions and interactions with the corpse,.... whereas Marys murder investigation and witnesses, the accreditted ones at this point in time, provide us with a viable theory that she knew her killer well enough to bring him to her room, or for him to come there alone.....(if just for paid sex, I might add the ONLY such time we would have of that on record...she was a street worker, like Mary Ann).

Its what her killer does to her that suggests Jack the Ripper...whereas with Kate, all the elements that we believe exist in the killers MO are present, including the post mortem mutilations, which are focussed from the pubis to the breast bone.

My best regards Harry

[Fisherman]

dlew919 writes:

"...Tabram is non-canonical: the evidence points to a gang-rape gone even more wrong."

A gang-rape? And noone heard anything? And Killeen reported: "From appearances, there was no reason to suppose that recent intimacy had taken place."

Two different blades do not necessarily tell a tale of gang-rape, Iīm afraid. I see very little reason to ponder that possibility at all.

The best,
Fisherman