Kate Eddowes as Mary Ann Kelly.

[lynn cates]

infirmary

Hello Debs. I'm blown. Can't find my bloke in 1891.

Ironically, there are many John and Mary Ann's and John and Catherine's.

Is it possible that the John who died in January, 1892 in Whitechapel was in an infirmary when the census came round?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Debs. Thanks.

Splendid idea! Glad one of us has a brain.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks. Slight problem--my bloke died January, 1892.

Cheers.
LC

So, Lynn, your guy may appear on the 1891 census in Whitechapel then? B C 1842. Then we can see his occupation?

[lynn cates]

death date

Hello Debs. Thanks. Slight problem--my bloke died January, 1892.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

John and Mary Ann

Hello Debs. Thanks. Looks good to me (yes, congruent with chair caner).

I found a John Kelly, with father William, who married Mary Ann Murphy.

2 problems:

1. He was a tailor.

2. They married 1865 in Yorkshire.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

John Kelly's death?

This is who I think is a a possible for Eddowes' Kelly, Lynn
He was in the Infirmary on several occasions between 1885 and 1890 and always gave the address of 55 Flower and Dean Street:

The last entry for this John Kelly has him entering the Whitechapel Infirmary on 27th June 1890 and dying on the 29th of June 1890 from dropsy. His age is given as 47 , single, address 55 Flower and Dean Street and occupation a market porter.

Here's the death in free BMD

Deaths Sep 1890
Kelly John 47 Whitechapel 1c 189

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn
I may now have a possible marriage-

On Oct 21st 1866, at St James Church, Shoreditch (my 1881 seat caner was born Shoreditch)

William Kelley, age 25, batchelor, boot(?) maker married Mary Ann Fitz Simmonds, age 21 (b c 1845, which fits) a spinster and daughter of James Patrick Fitz Simmonds a chair and couch maker (which fits with chair caning?)

In one Infirmary entry Mary Ann Kelly's surname is spelled Kelley.

and a death for William:

William Kelley
Estimated Birth Year: abt. 1842
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1874
Age at Death: 32
Registration district: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 61

In the Infirmary records that I mentioned on another thread, a John Kelly b c 1842 consistently listed as a market porter, Roman catholic and single appears. In 1891 this man died (I can't remember the exact date but will find it again and corresponding index entry)

[lynn cates]

begin

Hello Debs. I need a starting point against which to compare. I found the following death notice of a John Kelly, aged 50 (born 1842), from Whitechapel, first quarter 1892.

Is this reasonable for our John? Can he be ruled out in any way?

If not, I'll see if there are any matching records with "William" in the name.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

John and Mary

Hello Debs. Thanks.

" The age would be about right for Eddowes' John Kelly but what else ties this record to Eddowes' John Kelly?"

Well, so far as I can see, nothing. Occupation looks wrong.

The Mary Ann's, however, look like a match.

I'll keep trying.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks.

So the possible identification involves John (with MAK) and William (same)?

Cheers.
LC

John Kelly was a very common name, so we basically have Mark King focusing on the John Kelly, b c 1842 ,a dock labourer living with his wife Mary Ann at 3 Paternoster Row. The age would be about right for Eddowes' John Kelly but what else ties this record to Eddowes' John Kelly?

Then we have a death certificate for a 42 year old ( b c 1846) woman named Mary Ann Kelly. address 55 Flower and Dean Street. Mary Ann is a chair caner, that's all we know of her from the certificate

Then we have a Mary Ann Kelly in the Infirmary records also b c 1846, known to have given her address as 55 Flower and Dean Street a few times between 86 and 87. This Mary Ann was the widow of William Kelly, a timber porter (the Infirmary record tells us this). Mary Ann doesn't appear in the Infirmary records after Oct. 87 as far as I can see, leaving the possibility that she died. In the 1881 census there is a Mary Kelly, widow living at Bethnal Green and carrying on the occupation of chair caner.

[lynn cates]

possible identification

Hello Debs. Thanks.

So the possible identification involves John (with MAK) and William (same)?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn,

What I was trying to determine was if the John and Mary Kelly living at 3 Paternoster Row in 1881 (he a dock labourer which wasn't John Kelly's trade as far as we know?) were really Eddowes' John Kelly and his first 'wife', Mary Ann?

Mark King concluded it was in an article in Ripperana 12. His conclusions appear to based on two records- the 1881 census entry I just mentioned and a death certificate for a woman named Mary Ann Kelly of the same age and living at 55 Flower and Dean Street when she died ( a known address of John Kelly). Mary Ann was a chair caner by trade. Transcripts of both records appear in my first post.

Whilst looking in the Infirmary records for 85-88 I came across a Mary Ann Kelly, address given the majority of times as 55 Flower and Dean who disappears in the records after late 87 (so could tie in with the death certificate) but this MAK gives her husband's name as William Kelly. Could this be the Mary Ann Kelly who died in May 88 at 55 Flower and Dean Street and not the one married to a John Kelly on the 1881 census at Paternoster Row? Seeing as we don't know for sure that is even Eddowes' John Kelly?

[lynn cates]

Mary Ann Kelly

Hello Debs. Just ran across a Mary Ann Kelly b. 1852 Westminster; d. Westminster, July, 1888.

She married a Henry Hoyte in Whitechapel, 1873.

Unfortunately, it is all family tree.

Been down this road yet?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Debs. Great find.

Are we looking at two or three Mary Ann Kellys here?

I'll see if I can dredge up something later on.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Eddowes as Mary Ann Kelly

Back in 2003, Dave O'Flaherty made this interesting post:

Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 3:16 pm:
Ripperana, no. 12 has the answer to my question. In a piece on pages 15-16, Mark King writes that John and Mary Ann Kelly were still married and living at 3 Paternoster Row, Dorset Street in 1881.

Mark King references:

"1881 Census Return. John Kelly, 38, Dock Labourer, born Spitalfields. Mary Ann Kelly, 38, wife, Charwoman, born Whitechapel. Both resident at 3 Little Paternoster Row, Spitalfields."

What's really interesting to me is that a Mary Ann Kelly died of "haemorrhage from the lungs" in 1888, at 55 Flower and Dean Street! If she was John Kelly's Mary Ann, I wonder how she and Catherine Eddowes got along.

Mark King references:

"Death Certificate. Mary Ann Kelly, 15 May, 1888, 55 Flower and Dean Street, Spitalfields, aged 42. Occupation-Chair Caner. Sudden death. Haemorrhage from the lungs. Natural causes. Inquest held 17 May 1888."

Did Mark King or anyone else follow up on Mary Ann Kelly's death inquest? It seems reasonable that John Kelly would've testified, and possibly even Kate Eddowes.

It's not related to the later murder of Eddowes, but I think any light shed on the lives of contemporaries is interesting and important. This will be old news (but maybe forgotten?) to many, but it's all new to me, and I've never read any discussions about it.

Cheers,
Dave

Going through the Whitechapel Infirmary records recently,I came across the regular appearance of a woman named Mary Ann Kelly in those records. In the majority of her entries, this Mary Ann Kelly gives her address as 55 Flower and Dean Street and her given ages tally with a year of birth of c1846; three details that correspond with the details on the death certificate found by Mark King.

However, this Mary Ann Kelly claims to be the widow of a man named William Kelly, not John. William is described as a porter or timber porter.
The last entry I could find for this particular Mary Ann Kelly, widow of William, was in October 1887, when her address was again given as 55 Flower and Dean Street.

In the Infirmary records, this Mary Ann Kelly claims to have had one year settlement in the parish of Whitechapel (to qualify for treatment there) so may have come from another parish.

Looking in the 1881 census for this lady, I found a widow listed as Mary Kelly of the right age and her occupation given as a chair caner (as mentioned in the death certificate) living in Bethnal Green:

1881 England Census about Mary Kelly
Name: Mary Kelly
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 3 Collingwood S
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Chair Caner
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green

I haven't been able to trace Mary Ann Kelly in 1871 or find a marriage entry between a William Kelly and a Mary Ann before 1881, as yet.
Mark King did not transcribe the name of the informant from the death certificate and I cannot see mention of the name John in the transciption. Perhaps the name John does appear on there somewhere but Mark didn't mention it?
But, is it also possible that the Mary Ann Kelly who died in May 1888, aged 42 a chair caner,living at 55 Flower and Dean Street was not married to Eddowes' John Kelly? And that isn't them in the 1881 census?