Annie's last meal

[Fleetwood Mac]

That's ok FM, no worries. Just trying to offer possible reasons for the stomach contents.
As I've said in other posts I have no answers so I work from "queries not theories ". I have soooo many questions which is why I don't presume to have any answers .....probably makes me an irritant lol.

Helen x

Aye, there are boatloads of possibilities and more than enough unanswered questions!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Perhaps she took something to eat , when no one was looking [ potato or otherwise ] to consume later.

'Anything's possible but the way I look at it is where does that possible land on the spectrum of likelihood.

We know Annie left the lodging house to get her doss money and told them not to let her bed. That would firmly suggest she wasn't planning on being long. And then you'd have to ask the question: why is she squirreling away potatoes when in her own words she's expecting to be asleep within a couple of hours maximum after she ate at 1.45am.

[JeffHamm]

I've had a quick dig around and found a 2017 research paper looking at stomach contents during post-mortem examinations (Kaul, M., Kumar, K., Kaul, A.Chanana, A., & Kumar, A. (2017). Digestive Status of Stomach contents - An indicator of Time Since Death. IOSR Journal of Dental and Medical Sciences, 16 (10), 26-35.).

There were over 500 cases examined (n=507). Basically, as we can see in the tables below, after 4-5 hours after the last meal there is likely to only be partial gastric emptying (emptying of the stomach), and so it would not be suprising to find some food in Annie's stomach even if she were killed at 5:25 (obviously, earlier would also not be surprising - the key here is whether or not the finding of some food remains in her stomach can differentiate the two options). Also, for both males and females, for meals eaten 4-5 hours prior to death the food that remained in the stomach was recognizable 50% of the time (and food in these cases was recognized as roti, dal, pulses, vegetables, and dairy products).

With regards to females, they report "In 86.67% female cases food was present in stomach in both recognizable and unrecognizable form. Out of which 38.46 % cases represented with recognizable food contents. In 34.29% cases food was present in stomach in recognizable form up to 4 hours of last meal intake, in 20.0% cases from 4-6 hours, in 22.86% cases from 6-10 hours duration." - in other words, when there is food present in the stomach, and it is recognizable, that really doesn't tell us much with regards to how long since the last meal.

Also, they point out "Any illness or emotional stress, may prolong the emptying time for many hours." (and they cite 2 articles in support of that statement). We know Annie was ill, and if she had been out all night, her stress levels are also likely to be raised, so both are factors that would possibly slow the emptying of her stomach.

In the end, as is the case with biological processes, there is a lot of variation in the measurements which means any observation from a single case can only be viewed with wide margins of error. Those error margins are going to be such that it will not be possible to differentiate between various suggested Times of Death (basically, from this sort of information, it looks like she was killed sometime after 1:45, the last time she was seen alive and eating potatos, and as she had only partial gastric emptying, we can see that 30 of 54 of those cases had their last mean < 10 hour previously, and for 24 it was >10. So, basically, Annie died sometime after 1:45 and before she was found in the backyard of Hanbury - but I think we knew that already.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Is volume going to be a variable in the equation? Do 4 potatoes take longer to digest than one potato, or does the body provide extra stomach acid to account for the extra food? Anyone know?

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

Is volume going to be a variable in the equation? Do 4 potatoes take longer to digest than one potato, or does the body provide extra stomach acid to account for the extra food? Anyone know?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

The article above does mention that smaller meals will tend to be completely removed from the stomach faster than larger ones. Unfortunately, we don't know how large a meal of potatoes Annie had, so we can't say if that would push for an earlier or later time. We do know that some was found in her stomach, and that it was recognized to be potatoes. Unfortunately, from the research in this area, when recognizable food was found in the stomach (as in Annie's case), it really doesn't narrow the time window down all that much. Moreover, Annie's chronic illness, and possibly increased stress levels, also need to be considered as these are things that can slow the emptying of the stomach.

So we have information that suggests her stomach could empty slower than the typical pattern, we lack information about the meal size which would be important to know to make a proper evaluation, and we have data that suggests that given what we do know she could have died anywhere from 0-10+ hours after her last meal, well, it's not looking like this avenue is likely to provide any real information for us. A shame, really, but that's often the way it goes.

- Jeff

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM,

There is some information on the topic here:

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

Dr. Phillips states that there was still some food in her stomach so her last meal was only partially digested at her time of death so how long does it take for a meal of potatoes to fully digest?

Dr. Robert Court, who contributed to a discussion about this issue on the Casebook: Jack the Ripper website several years ago, asked colleagues in the pathology department this very question. His personal opinion was that it would take about an hour for a potato to be fully digested but was told that "a time of less than half-an-hour was realistic." One forensic pathologist that I talked to told me that a small meal of potatoes would be fully digested "in about an hour to an hour and a half," ³² while another told me "this small solid meal would take some time like 2 3 hours, 'let us say' to be digested." ³³ Here we have a range of between half an hour to three hours for Annie Chapman's meal to have become fully digested, which would suggest that as the food was only partially digested at death the range for estimated time of death falls somewhere after 1:30 to1:45 a.m., the last time we know she ate, and sometime before 4:30 a.m. or, the time offered by Dr. Phillips.

31. Both the Times and the Daily Telegraph reported that Dr. Phillips had stated that Chapman's stomach had "contained a little food" which would seem to correspond with her dinner of baked potato. However, the Daily News, 14 September, reported "there was a full meal in the stomach" while the Eastern Post, 15 September, reported that "the stomach contained a meal of food", both which seem to suggest more food than a simple potato. The inquest coverage provided by the Daily Telegraph is consistently the most reliable so I have gone with its interpretation of what Dr. Phillips actually said. I leave it up to the reader to accept or reject this assertion.

32. Letter to the author from Dr. Randy Hanzlick, 2 May, 2000. Dr. Hanzlick is the Chief Medical Examiner for Fulton County, Georgia; Associate Professor of Forensic Pathology at Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta and a Forensic Pathologist for the Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta.

33. Letter to the author from Dr. Wilmes Teixeira dated 11 July, 2000. Dr. Teixeira had been a Forensic Pathologist for over fifty years and was still teaching Forensic Pathology at the Centro de Medicina Forense de Mogi das Cruzes at the University of Mogi das Cruzes outside of Sao Paulo, Brazil. It was Dr. Teixeira who coordinated the team of international forensic experts during the exhumation and autopsy of the body of wanted Nazi Dr. Joseph Mengele, the so called Angel of Death.

Cheers, George

Thanks for this George.

It seems the press agree that Annie's last meal was not fully digested. I agree with your assessment that the Daily Telegraph is the most reliable and I go along with: "little food in the stomach".

So, we have experts in the field who have looked specifically at Annie Chapman's meal of potatoes and gave the opinion, based on their experience and expertise, that between 1 and 3 hours to fully digest a meal of potatoes. In the absence of anything else, let's go with the average of 2 hours to be fully digested. Given Annie still had 'little food' in her stomach, there is some time to knock off for that. In terms of quantifying that time it's guesswork in the absence of any further information. So, let's say a bit less than two hours.

Ultimately, experts who have looked specifically at Annie's meal of potatoes at 1.45am are telling us Annie will have eaten again that night in the event she was murdered at 5.30am, which brings us neatly back to the initial questions posed in this thread.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I've had a quick dig around and found a 2017 research paper looking at stomach contents during post-mortem examinations (Kaul, M., Kumar, K., Kaul, A.Chanana, A., & Kumar, A. (2017). Digestive Status of Stomach contents - An indicator of Time Since Death. IOSR Journal of Dental and Medical Sciences, 16 (10), 26-35.).

There were over 500 cases examined (n=507). Basically, as we can see in the tables below, after 4-5 hours after the last meal there is likely to only be partial gastric emptying (emptying of the stomach), and so it would not be suprising to find some food in Annie's stomach even if she were killed at 5:25 (obviously, earlier would also not be surprising - the key here is whether or not the finding of some food remains in her stomach can differentiate the two options). Also, for both males and females, for meals eaten 4-5 hours prior to death the food that remained in the stomach was recognizable 50% of the time (and food in these cases was recognized as roti, dal, pulses, vegetables, and dairy products).

With regards to females, they report "In 86.67% female cases food was present in stomach in both recognizable and unrecognizable form. Out of which 38.46 % cases represented with recognizable food contents. In 34.29% cases food was present in stomach in recognizable form up to 4 hours of last meal intake, in 20.0% cases from 4-6 hours, in 22.86% cases from 6-10 hours duration." - in other words, when there is food present in the stomach, and it is recognizable, that really doesn't tell us much with regards to how long since the last meal.

Also, they point out "Any illness or emotional stress, may prolong the emptying time for many hours." (and they cite 2 articles in support of that statement). We know Annie was ill, and if she had been out all night, her stress levels are also likely to be raised, so both are factors that would possibly slow the emptying of her stomach.

In the end, as is the case with biological processes, there is a lot of variation in the measurements which means any observation from a single case can only be viewed with wide margins of error. Those error margins are going to be such that it will not be possible to differentiate between various suggested Times of Death (basically, from this sort of information, it looks like she was killed sometime after 1:45, the last time she was seen alive and eating potatos, and as she had only partial gastric emptying, we can see that 30 of 54 of those cases had their last mean < 10 hour previously, and for 24 it was >10. So, basically, Annie died sometime after 1:45 and before she was found in the backyard of Hanbury - but I think we knew that already.

- Jeff

In order to make this relevant, we need to know how many of the 500 cases ate a meal of potatoes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ultimately, experts who have looked specifically at Annie's meal of potatoes at 1.45am are telling us Annie will have eaten again that night in the event she was murdered at 5.30am, which brings us neatly back to the initial questions posed in this thread.

Thats not true. All that’s being suggested is that she could have eaten again.To make positive use of any scientific information then we need to know for certain when Annie last ate. All that we know is when she was last seen eating..

This thread is pointless as we will never be able to prove that she didn’t eat again.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Thats not true. All that’s being suggested is that she could have eaten again.To make positive use of any scientific information then we need to know for certain when Annie last ate. All that we know is when she was last seen eating..

This thread is pointless as we will never be able to prove that she didn’t eat again.

We have experts who have looked specifically at Annie's 1.45am meal of potatoes. This really should catch our attention.

They, based on their years of experience, are telling us that in the event Annie was murdered at 5.30am then she will have eaten again.

I think this is valuable information for reasons that shouldn't need to be stated.

In the event you think this is all pointless, I would suggest you leave it there. You've made your point and it's a point that's understood loud and clear. Meanwhile, others believe it is not pointless for obvious reasons, one of them being Dr Phillips' observation of: "little food in the stomach" is one of the most valuable bits of evidence we have in terms of defining the most reasonable TOD.

[Abby Normal]

Thats not true. All that’s being suggested is that she could have eaten again.To make positive use of any scientific information then we need to know for certain when Annie last ate. All that we know is when she was last seen eating..

This thread is pointless as we will never be able to prove that she didn’t eat again.

bingo. doubly pointless, because when excellent researchers like Jeff provide relevant data and studies, as he just did, posters like George and FM just move the goalposts, question it by going down the minutia rabbit hole and move the goal posts.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m fine with leaving it but digestion is only useful when we know for certain the last time that the victim ate. And we don’t. We only know the last time that she was witnessed eating.

[JeffHamm]

In order to make this relevant, we need to know how many of the 500 cases ate a meal of potatoes.

Wonderful, I look forward to you sharing the scientific research you've found, with citation and sample sizes, that indicates potatoes is a factor so vital that it modifies the general implications.

- Jeff

[etenguy]

So, basically, Annie died sometime after 1:45 and before she was found in the backyard of Hanbury - but I think we knew that already. - Jeff

Hi Jeff

But never have we arrived at this conclusion through such elegant means - really fascinating and useful post - thank you.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

But never have we arrived at this conclusion through such elegant means - really fascinating and useful post - thank you.

ha ha! Indeed, this is because the digestion of potatoes is so much like clockwork, not varying from one to another (unlike, for example, clocks in the Victorian era), that having found an indeterminant amount of potatoes in the stomach one is capable of pinpointing the ToD to the minute.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

[QUOTE=JeffHamm;n793454]

ha ha! Indeed, this is because the digestion of potatoes is so much like clockwork, not varying from one to another (unlike, for example, clocks in the Victorian era), that having found an indeterminant amount of potatoes in the stomach one is capable of pinpointing the ToD to the minute./QUOTE]

Hi Jeff.
Was it ever stated that the food found in Annie's stomach was actually potatoes, or is that just an assumption?