Attempted decapitation

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Everyone

It seems that Nichols killer had made no direct attempt at decapitation. Here's Dr Llewellyn describing her throat wounds, note the vertebrae was only 'slightly injured'

Dr Llewellyn;-

'The neck is severed back to the vertebrae, which is also slightly injured.'
'This incision completely severs all the tissues down to the vertebrae.'

However, many of the early press reports describe Nichols throat wounds in the context of the near removal of her head, here's a selection;-

'The throat had been so severely cut that the head was nearly severed'
'with such force as to approach as to decapitation'
'making a wide and horrible hole, and nearly severing the head from the body'

If we compare the above with Chapman, Dr Phillips notes an actual attempt to separate the bones of the neck ;-

'The throat had been severed as before described. The incisions into the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck. There were two distinct, clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel from each other and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck.'

So, here's the question;-

If the killer of Chapman had managed to remove her head, would you consider this as being further evidence (along with the missing uterus) that the killer of Nichols was interrupted ?

Thanks

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mr. Lucky,

The same reasoning can apply to Eddowes too. Was he interrupted then too?

But there's a small problem with Kelly.

The killer had ages of time to do exactly that.. and didn't.

Does that mean that decapitus interruptus did not occur with Kelly?..and does that make Kelly's killer a different person because the intention to decapitate wasn't fulfilled?


Phil

[The Good Michael]

The intensity of the throat-cutting displays a bit of uncontrolled emotion. I have no doubt that actual decapitation wasn't what the killer wanted in any case or else it would have been done.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mr Lucky,

Probably worth noting that in the case of Mary Kelly there is also a "near" decapitation, as well as her right arm... almost completely severed from the body.

It seems unlikely to me that the person who had evaded identification for a few years while making Torsos wouldnt completely decapitate and/or dismember his victims when given an opportunity,.. therefore I think that Marys, Pollys, Annies and Kates killer...the ones with the most emphatic throat wounds.... was(were) not the person(people) who made the Torsos.

I believe that its possible that the appearance of attempts to dislodge the heads was a result of the overkill method used to cut the throats,...if they were lying down when he cuts their throats he may have been putting most of his weight down on that knife.

I dont know if anyone has identified the specific manner in which these deep double cuts were made, ...i.e. slicing back and forth repeatedly, a few deep sawing strokes with some force applied, whether the knife was long enough to have the killer sitting abreast on the victim and place both hands on the spine of the blade and see-saw it with force but without much in the way of sawing or slicing....but it would be interesting to know whether the actual physical methodologies were similar.

What I mean by that is that I believe that anyone, given enough of a particular impetus and lacking the moral control over mind and body, could attempt to duplicate a heinous act like in these cases. And I doubt that they would do it differently if they then repeated the act once again. I think formulas, and comfort zones play into these questions.

I also think that one way to look for possible differentiation from C1 to C5 would be in the specific way the knife was used in each case. Similar results dont necessarily mean "the same as".

Best regards

[Errata]

Decapitation in the end isn't hard. Removing a leg or an arm is a lot harder, as anyone whose ever watched their own knee surgery knows. To decapitate someone, you cut down to the spine, stick the knife between the vertebrae to sever the spinal column and interior connections, and you have a head. It's even easier if you take the skull off the spinal column. The only thing that makes it easier or harder is the tools you use. If you don't have something that you can slip between vertebrae, then you have a problem. But a thin knife will do the job. And it's kind of idiot proof. If any of these women had the tip of a blade broken off between vertebrae, I would concede it was an attempted beheading. Otherwise It's just a super pissed off killer.

[curious4]

Arm

Hi Mr Lucky,

Probably worth noting that in the case of Mary Kelly there is also a "near" decapitation, as well as her right arm... almost completely severed from the body.

It seems unlikely to me that the person who had evaded identification for a few years while making Torsos wouldnt completely decapitate and/or dismember his victims when given an opportunity,.. therefore I think that Marys, Pollys, Annies and Kates killer...the ones with the most emphatic throat wounds.... was(were) not the person(people) who made the Torsos.

I believe that its possible that the appearance of attempts to dislodge the heads was a result of the overkill method used to cut the throats,...if they were lying down when he cuts their throats he may have been putting most of his weight down on that knife.

I dont know if anyone has identified the specific manner in which these deep double cuts were made, ...i.e. slicing back and forth repeatedly, a few deep sawing strokes with some force applied, whether the knife was long enough to have the killer sitting abreast on the victim and place both hands on the spine of the blade and see-saw it with force but without much in the way of sawing or slicing....but it would be interesting to know whether the actual physical methodologies were similar.

What I mean by that is that I believe that anyone, given enough of a particular impetus and lacking the moral control over mind and body, could attempt to duplicate a heinous act like in these cases. And I doubt that they would do it differently if they then repeated the act once again. I think formulas, and comfort zones play into these questions.

I also think that one way to look for possible differentiation from C1 to C5 would be in the specific way the knife was used in each case. Similar results dont necessarily mean "the same as".

Best regards

Hello Michael,

I don't remember reading anything about Mary's arm being severed. Could you tell me where you read this?
Best wishes,
C4

[Mr Lucky]

Hi All

Thanks for the replies, however before we start going off on tangents, I just want to bring us back to the original point.

If the killer of Chapman had managed to remove her head, would you consider this as being further evidence (along with the missing uterus) that the killer of Nichols was interrupted ?

Or alternatively, perhaps you don't consider that Nichols killer was interrupted?

Or is there anything else about the Chapman murder that suggests that Nichols murderer was interrupted?

Thanks again.

[Ben]

Yes, as Dr. Phillips observed, an attempt was evidently made to sever Chapman's head. The fact that the killer failed in this endeavour is a pretty good indication that he wasn't a butcher or slaughterer.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I don't remember reading anything about Mary's arm being severed. Could you tell me where you read this?
Best wishes,
C4

Hi c4,

Its in Bonds comments, during the postmortem examinations..."The left arm was close to the body with the forearm flexed at a right angle & lying across the abdomen. the right arm was slightly abducted from the body & rested on the mattress, the elbow bent & the forearm supine with the fingers clenched".

As I said it was "almost" severed.

Cheers

[Errata]

Hi c4,

Its in Bonds comments, during the postmortem examinations..."The left arm was close to the body with the forearm flexed at a right angle & lying across the abdomen. the right arm was slightly abducted from the body & rested on the mattress, the elbow bent & the forearm supine with the fingers clenched".

As I said it was "almost" severed.

Cheers

I always thought that meant that her right arm was bent away from the body. Akimbo even. Not that it had been severed.

Handy dandy medical dictionary says
Abduction: Movement of a body part away from the median plane (of the body, in the case of limbs; of the hand or foot, in the case of digits).
or a position that results from the above.

I want to say I know what that means, but I kinda don't.

[Edward]

Abduction

Hello all,

Errata, your point is correct. The description simply means that the arm was situated away from the body (as opposed to lying next to the body).

Edward

[curious4]

Abducted

Yes, that was my interpretation. Two countries divided by a common language, perhaps?

Best wishes,
C4

[DRoy]

Ben,

Yes, as Dr. Phillips observed, an attempt was evidently made to sever Chapman's head. The fact that the killer failed in this endeavour is a pretty good indication that he wasn't a butcher or slaughterer.

"The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck." The key word being "appeared". The same could be said for MJK. I would agree though that it doesn't help the butcher or slaughterer theory regardless.

DRoy

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Guys!!

I'm starting to feel like I'm trying to weld treacle to a balloon here, but I'll have another go;-

Basically, what I'm trying to do is present a hypothetical situation and ask a question based around the specifics of that situation.

So, Dr Phillips had noticed an attempt to separate the vertebrae of Chapman neck, if the killer had actually manage to fully decapitate Chapman would you cite this as evidence that the killer of Nichols had been interrupted before he had finished doing what he intended?

If there's anything else you like to bring up, about Kelly's arm or whether the killer had watched his own knee surgery or not I would be very pleased to hear about it ,but after you've answered the question. Thanks very much !!

[Observer]

Hi Roy

Not even a deluded hallucinating butcher? haha.

The thing is, regarding Mary Kelly, the killer was working in very low light conditions, would this have been a hinderance if he intended to remove the head? He managed to severe all the tissue that is the neck right down to the vertebrae, but as has been suggested a butcher or a slaughterman would have been able to severe the head blindfolded. The big issue is intent of course, and I'm afraid the answer to whether the killer intended to severe the head is lost to us now.

Regards

Observer