Time Factor

[Phil H]

But PROVE Richardson was ever in the yard at al on that morning, until after the discovery of the body.

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

As Richardson said (and from looking at the photograph of the door and the yard) it would have been impossible for him to have not seen the body. Also, if the body had been there when Richardson was at the yard then the evidence of both Cadosch and Mrs Long is irrelevant.

Well stated Stewart, and I happen to agree with that logic. Following that thought it seems to me that Mr Cadosch must be the relevant witness here, because he hears something coming from a yard we know a murder takes place in, within a very short time from that soft cry of "no". If Mrs Long saw Annie then the medical opinion about her core temperature was incorrect.

I dont intend to disparage the medical opinion based on a possible sighting....in this case, or Carrie Maxwells.

My best regards

[Bridewell]

Not Rivkah's mistake, but mine. I quoted a bit from her post and inserted the name.

Thanks for clarifying. The point wasn't aimed at anyone personally though.

[K-453]

[...] Cadosch. This is the correct spelling.

Not Rivkah's mistake, but mine. I quoted a bit from her post and inserted the name.

[Bridewell]

[B]

No one has mentioned packing case makers in the yard ahead of Davis' discovery anyway.

Phil

I was alluding to Cadosch's own testimony. The only alternative explanation for the noise which he mentions is the use of the yard of No.29 by packing-case makers.

"It is not usual to hear thumps against the palings?"
"They are packing-case makers, and now and then there is a great case goes up against the palings. I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over."

[Bridewell]

What Cadosche heard could equally have been someone (other than John Davis) stumbling upon the body.

And keeping quiet about it. To what end?

[Phil H]

As there is no record of anything being found on top of, or near, Chapman's body and subsequently removed, it is entirely logical to conclude that nothing had landed on it, and that the noise heard was the sound of Chapman's body falling to the ground against the fence.

I respectfully disagree.

What Cadosche heard could equally have been someone (other than John Davis) stumbling upon the body.

No one has mentioned packing case makers in the yard ahead of Davis' discovery anyway.

Phil

[Bridewell]

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya
I'm willing to believe that he [Cadosh] heard something, and once he knew there was a body on the other side of the fence, suddenly decided he'd heard something fall against the fence right where the body was. People do that, and entirely false memories are surprisingly easy to induce.

Hi Rivkah,

Cadosch left for work at 5.30am and made a statement to the police later the same day (on his return from work). When he heard that a body had been found on the other side of the fence it was surely entirely logical for him to assume that it was likely to have been the body of Annie Chapman? The only alternative would be that packing-case makers were chucking packing cases around in a small yard with a disemboweled body in it which they failed to notice at any point. That's not likely. The fall heard by Cadosch would have to be either Chapman's body falling or something landing on top of her body or nearby, had it already been there. As there is no record of anything being found on top of, or near, Chapman's body and subsequently removed, it is entirely logical to conclude that nothing had landed on it, and that the noise heard was the sound of Chapman's body falling to the ground against the fence. None of the police and other witnesses attending the scene make any mention of anything being against the fence except the body of Annie Chapman. If something other than Chapman's body fell against the fence, what happened to it? Had ten substantial objects been found lying against the fence, it would be possible to argue that it was any one of the ten which Cadosch heard falling. As the only entity found against the fence was Chapman's body, it was her body which Cadosch heard falling, unless you buy the swooning harlot theory - which I don't.

This may be seen as a nitpick, and perhaps it is, but the variant spellings: Cadosh, Cadoch, Cadoche, Cadosche & Cadoseh are all errors by the contemporary press and subsequent transcribers. The family, from at least the beginning of the 19th century, were consistent in spelling their name as Cadosch. This is the correct spelling. Apologies, Rivkah, this isn't aimed at you personally. I just think that the names of witnesses, where the correct spelling is known, should be spelt correctly.

[Bridewell]

As Richardson said (and from looking at the photograph of the door and the yard) it would have been impossible for him to have not seen the body. Also, if the body had been there when Richardson was at the yard then the evidence of both Cadosch and Mrs Long is irrelevant.

Just so. In fact, apart from a slight time discrepancy between Cadosch and Mrs Long the evidence of Richardson, Long and Cadosch is entirely consistent in pointing towards a TOD after 5.15am for Chapman. I'm not in favour of discounting the testimony of these three witnesses just to fit in with Bagster Phillips' original claim that the body had been dead for two hours at 6.30am when he arrived - especially as Bagster Phillips himself later conceded that he might have been in error.

[K-453]

The fact that he consistently took the one large organ that women have, and men don't, says more to me about his degree of anatomical knowledge, than whether or not it was removed efficiently.

Agree.

Let's not forget the people of the Victorian age were so prudish they left their kids completely in the dark about the anatomy of the opposite gender, or even their own.

[K-453]

I'm willing to believe that he [Cadosh] heard something, and once he knew there was a body on the other side of the fence, suddenly decided he'd heard something fall against the fence right where the body was. People do that, and entirely false memories are surprisingly easy to induce.

I had the same thought. What if Cadosh heard some bump and automatically attributed it to the packing case makers next door, whose noises he was familiar with? He admittedly was too busy with his own problems to pay much attention, 'thinking about his work' and 'feeling unwell after an operation'. He never mentions seeing the fence shake from something bumping against it.

The 'No' he heard could have been coming from people talking behind one of the open windows in 29, or 27 itself. Voices that actually come from above can sound like they come from somewhere near us on the ground.

It happened to me myself that a person was calling out to me and I thought she was standing somewhere behind me - but could not find her when turning around. It was really confusing until she called "Up here!", and I realized she was actually at a window two storeys above me.

(Sorry for mistakes, English is not my native language.)

[Stewart P Evans]

Richardson

As Richardson said (and from looking at the photograph of the door and the yard) it would have been impossible for him to have not seen the body. Also, if the body had been there when Richardson was at the yard then the evidence of both Cadosch and Mrs Long is irrelevant.

[Phil H]

I did not close the back door; it closes itself...

Presumably relates to his departure. If he sat on the step he either had to have

a) the door fully closed behind him - in which case he MUST have seen the body as he would have had to step fully into the yard. Or

b) he must have propped the door open with his body. It is then JUST possible he might not have seen a body, as his attention would have been to his right (cellar door) not to his left (where the body could have been).

I don't see any other logical alternative.

Phil

[Stewart P Evans]

Richardson's Evidence

Richardson stated (inter alia) that, "I opened it [the back door] and sat on the doorstep and cut a piece of leather off my boot...I did not close the back door; it closes itself..."

[Bridewell]

Unless what Cadosch heard was someone finding the body - and then scarpering?

In which case, assuming they scarpered straightaway, I would expect him to have seen the yard door open and shut as the person/people did their scarpering.

Of course, Cadosch himself is no longer a wholly unsullied witness.

Indeed.