Chapman time of death poll

[Lewis C]

A point was made in Herlock's Chapman Timeline thread that I will ask about here so as to not continue to derail the purpose of Herlock's thread. It was said there that a problem with Chapman being murdered as late as 5:32 is that her mutilations would have taken at least 15 minutes, meaning that they would have continued until at least 5:47. My question is, why is that a problem? Davis didn't discover the body until well after that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was it not suggested that the Elizabeth Long heard the quarter past tolling of the clock as opposed the the half past thus bringing it more inline with Cadosch's toilet visit?

What is your best guess at TOD for Chapman Herlock Sholmes ?

Long hearing an earlier clock has been suggested but if you look at the timings of Cadosch and Long you only have to allow them both 5 or 6 minutes either way and they tie up. Cadosch said: “I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think.”

So clearly he’s estimating. If we had our own stopwatch going - Long sees the couple at 5.30 (actual time say 5.25) Cadosch gets up at around 5.15 (actual time say 5.20.)

I think that she died around 5.25 (ish)

[Geddy2112]

From page 182: “…but what about discrepancies in the timings of the witnesses? Chronologically, if their timings were correct, the sequence doesn’t work. Albert Cadosch heard things in the backyard of number 29 Hanbury Street before Elizabeth Long saw Annie out the front, almost certainly talking to her killer. Albert says he came down to his yard at 5.20 am, while Elizabeth says her sighting was at 5.30 am. Well,I refer to the very beginning of this book when I spoke about witnesses and the issues with timings. As I said there, even today with all the opportunities we have to allow us to know what the time of day is, witnesses still get it wrong. In 1888, most most people didn’t have clocks, let alone watches. They were reliant on those in public, such as the one described by Mrs Long at the Black Eagle Brewery, or the one heard by John Davis at Spitalfield’s Market. So, we need to take these timings with a pinch of salt and understand they are usually best guesses.”

Was it not suggested that the Elizabeth Long heard the quarter past tolling of the clock as opposed the the half past thus bringing it more inline with Cadosch's toilet visit?

What is your best guess at TOD for Chapman Herlock Sholmes ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I certainly don’t want to re-start any discussion on Chapman’s ToD because it’s been done to death, but having just seen Patrick S mention former Scotland Yard Detective Steven Keogh on the other thread I thought that I’d post the opinion of someone who has experience of dealing with cases where efforts are made to determine ToD. Phillips as we know relied on the cooling of her body temperature (Algor mortis) to arrive at a ToD which was at variance with the three witnesses. Some have defended Phillips estimation based on the fact that he was there and that he was a competent Doctor.

Keogh talks about this method on page 161 of Murder Investigation Team saying: “…how unreliable a method it is, even when using modern equipment such as digital thermometers or computers.” As far as we know, Phillips only used his hand.

On page 162 he says:” One thing I would be extremely reluctant to do is to rule out a witness’s account based on the estimation of the time of death. I would be even less likely to rule out three witnesses accounts on that basis, especially when the method used to estimate the time of death was body temperature.

Another issue raised about a later ToD has been the risk of him being caught in the act with only one escape route. Keogh says on page 171 about the killer assessing the scene in regard to being disturbed and the consequences of an arrest: “I’m sure he considered this and still felt comfortable being there. In the police, we would call this a ‘dynamic risk assessment:’ identifying hazards or risks and working out how to reduce or eliminate them. Well, his hazard would have been the residents in that house. There is no way he would have let anyone prevent his escape, so I have no doubt they and the risk they posed would have been eliminated.”

And a more general point that I and others have made one or two thousand times:

From page 182: “…but what about discrepancies in the timings of the witnesses? Chronologically, if their timings were correct, the sequence doesn’t work. Albert Cadosch heard things in the backyard of number 29 Hanbury Street before Elizabeth Long saw Annie out the front, almost certainly talking o her killer.Albert says he came down to his yard at 5.20 am, while Elizabeth says her sighting was at 5.30 am. Well,I refer to the very beginning of this book when I spoke about witnesses and the issues with timings. As I said there, even today with all the opportunities we have to allow us to know what the time of day is, witnesses still get it wrong. In 1888, most most people didn’t have clocks, let alone watches. They were reliant on those in public, such as the one described by Mrs Long at the Black Eagle Brewery, or the one heard by John Davis at Spitalfield’s Market. So, we need to take these timings with a pinch of salt and understand they are usually best guesses.”

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

40 isn't "old".
Interestingly though, forty is described as "young" elsewhere.

The reason a corpse begins to smell is due to decomposition, the body had not been dead long enough for that.

But keep in mind that since Annie had been literally laid open with her entrails on her shoulders, the body would have cooled significantly faster than, say Liz Stride. Not sure what the temperature or weather was that morning, but the body may have cooled off enough to convince the doctor that she had been dead longer than she was. Just something to consider.

[Doctored Whatsit]

It has to be around first light, JtR didn't have night-vision lenses.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let it rest in peace!



The Baron

Like you keep repeating the same nonsense about Chapman’s TOD?

The Fact that you believed the nonsense above sums it all up nicely.

[The Baron]

I rest my case Harry.

Let it rest in peace!



The Baron

[The Baron]

OMG... you actually took this post seriously?

You know it was a p*sstake, right?

Yes, seriously! Can you imagine! I did!



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

OMG... you actually took this post seriously?

You know it was a p*sstake, right?

I rest my case Harry.

[Harry D]

Great post Dave!


Epilepsy!


Add to that, Richardson had long hair on his face, and only one good eye!


As this thread shows, 10 out of 21 voted for an earlier TOD.



The Baron

OMG... you actually took this post seriously?

You know it was a p*sstake, right?

[The Baron]

Hi Phil



Yes I agree Richardson's testimony seems to have been built on brick by brick...my initial suspicion was that he'd lied to his mother about looking in every day, felt committed to the lie, perpetuated it and then got himself into deeper and deeper trouble as the lies built up...culminating of course with the knife....

However, Debs' discovery that Richardson might've been discharged from the army with epilepsy could possibly lead to other scenarios...

So perhaps he suffered a petit mal type event and lost some period of time...or maybe (and just conceivably) worse...

I'm personally aware of at least one person in my past whose otherwise harmless epilepsy on occasion triggered violent episodes...the poor chap in question was resident in what could only (in the 70's) be described as a Mental Hospital (Haywards Heath) ... and as a casual visitor frankly one generally wondered why...he was a gentle and genial soul, a little confused sometimes, with a love of railway history...It was only after a couple of unfortunate events (one of which involved the attempted strangulation of a minibus driver taking him and others out for the day - during which incidentally he decked the attendant - me - with a single blow to the temple) that it emerged that his home prior to Haywards Heath had been Rampton...something which the authorities had chosen not to disclose to the charity I was working for!

I don't want to unjustly accuse John Richardson of something for which he might well've been totally innocent...but I'm keeping a very much open mind on the subject...particularly considering Colin's revelations regarding Cadosche and the possibly dubious nature of the Long sighting

All the best

Dave

Great post Dave!


Epilepsy!


Add to that, Richardson had long hair on his face, and only one good eye!


As this thread shows, 10 out of 21 voted for an earlier TOD.



The Baron

[Hunter]

Hi Velma

Post and be damned I say...and if the TOD comes out earlier rather than later then who's to say you're wrong? Personally I think the quack was looking at body temperature first and foremost rather than rigor, but either way I suspect earlier's the way to go!

Hi Dave,

Just curious, who was the quack?

[curious]

Discussions always get rehashed, opinions change, and new idea's can be brought to bear. Remember, new members are coming on board all the time, and likely are not aware of what has been discussed before.
Don't worry about it...

Merry xmas, Jon S.

True, Jon,
With me, even the same ole thing might be worded slightly differently and bring me a new thought or angle of seeing something.

So rehashing is not lost -- even on people who have waded through these boards for awhile.

Merry Christmas to you too.

[Wickerman]

Thanks, Dave,

It's just that I get bored saying it. And anyone who has read through this already knows what I think, but it just keeps being re-hashed.

Plus, the condition of the body makes it seem so obvious to me I don't understand the 5:30 thinking . . . .

oh, well.

Merry Christmas everyone -- no matter what your thinking is on this or any thing else.

Discussions always get rehashed, opinions change, and new idea's can be brought to bear. Remember, new members are coming on board all the time, and likely are not aware of what has been discussed before.
Don't worry about it...

Merry xmas, Jon S.