The Potato

[Chava]

In the course of the Richardson thread below I've been checking the inquest evidence over & over.

One thing I don't think has been discussed--and forgive me if it has!--is the potato that Annie Chapman was seen eating at 35 Dorset Street:

Deceased was then eating potatoes, and went out. She stood in the door two or three minutes, and then repeated, "Never mind, Tim; I shall soon be back. Don't let the bed." It was then about ten minutes to two a.m. She left the house, going in the direction of Brushfield-street. John Evans, the watchman, saw her leave the house. I did not see her again.

Bagster Phillips at the inquest says this:

The stomach contained a little food.

I've checked. It should take around 60 minutes for that potato to leave her stomach even given her malnutrition and health problems. Let's take it as far as we can. Let's say she was still eating potato when she left and continued to do so for a few minutes. Let's give her a slow digestion. That still only takes us to 3.30 am by which time her stomach should be empty. But Phillips finds some food. So what does this suggest? One of two things. Either Chapman was killed no later than 3.20 am-3.30 am. Or she was given food--but no alcohol--by someone else. It's possible that someone gave her the end of his sandwich or whatever, but no one comes forward to say they saw her. And it would have been booze rather than food that would have gotten Annie's attention.

I think the logical inference here--given Phillips's belief that she had been dead 'at least a couple of hours' when he first saw her--is that she was killed at around 3.30 am.

[etenguy]

In the course of the Richardson thread below I've been checking the inquest evidence over & over.

One thing I don't think has been discussed--and forgive me if it has!--is the potato that Annie Chapman was seen eating at 35 Dorset Street:

I think the logical inference here--given Phillips's belief that she had been dead 'at least a couple of hours' when he first saw her--is that she was killed at around 3.30 am.

Hi Chava

This was touched on in the Richardson thread, but not explored in detail, with regard to time of death.

We have two medical indicators of a 3.30ish time of death. One is the food found in the stomach, which if they are the potatoes she was eating at a little before 2.00am should have left her stomach by 3am ish, perhaps a little later given her health. Also, the condition of her body (heat, rigor etc...) suggested she had been dead at least two hours before being examined, which means 4.30am or earlier.

This, of course, flies in the face of witness statements (Long, Cadosch and Richardson), which if correct, point to a 5.30ish time of death. These three witnesses were independent of each and all roughly corroborate each other. Long and Cadosch, in my view, are inconclusive, but if Richardson is accurate and truthful, then poor Annie was killed later than the medical indicators suggest.

[Chava]

Hi Chava

This was touched on in the Richardson thread, but not explored in detail, with regard to time of death.

We have two medical indicators of a 3.30ish time of death. One is the food found in the stomach, which if they are the potatoes she was eating at a little before 2.00am should have left her stomach by 3am ish, perhaps a little later given her health. Also, the condition of her body (heat, rigor etc...) suggested she had been dead at least two hours before being examined, which means 4.30am or earlier.

This, of course, flies in the face of witness statements (Long, Cadosch and Richardson), which if correct, point to a 5.30ish time of death. These three witnesses were independent of each and all roughly corroborate each other. Long and Cadosch, in my view, are inconclusive, but if Richardson is accurate and truthful, then poor Annie was killed later than the medical indicators suggest.

Thanks Eten! Long and Cadoche can only be both right IMO unless that Brewery clock was way out. Or Cadoche's clock was out by 15 minutes. Now this could easily have happened. And as many have pointed out, why would Richardson lie? However for me the scientific evidence carries the day. If there is food in Annie's stomach, then I think she has to have been dead by 3.30 am. I don't see anyone giving her food after that potato. I thought her malnutrition & alcoholism might slow digestion down. But I've checked as far as I can and it doesn't seem that this could be the case. Also this wouldn't be the first starving drunk that Bagster Phillips would have had to do with...

[etenguy]

Thanks Eten! Long and Cadoche can only be both right IMO unless that Brewery clock was way out. Or Cadoche's clock was out by 15 minutes. Now this could easily have happened. And as many have pointed out, why would Richardson lie? However for me the scientific evidence carries the day. If there is food in Annie's stomach, then I think she has to have been dead by 3.30 am. I don't see anyone giving her food after that potato. I thought her malnutrition & alcoholism might slow digestion down. But I've checked as far as I can and it doesn't seem that this could be the case. Also this wouldn't be the first starving drunk that Bagster Phillips would have had to do with...

A word of caution though. We do not know for certain when Annie took her last meal. Certainly she ate at 2.00am, but she may also have eaten something later. In addition, there are potential explanations which explain why Phillip's estimate based on the corpse's condition might have been inaccurate.

[Chava]

A word of caution though. We do not know for certain when Annie took her last meal. Certainly she ate at 2.00am, but she may also have eaten something later. In addition, there are potential explanations which explain why Phillip's estimate based on the corpse's condition might have been inaccurate.

She may well have eaten something later. But that begs the question what and when. If she eats something after 2.00 am, she must eat no earlier than 4.15-4.30 am to make her 5.15-5.30 deadline as it were. That's pretty late. And if there is food at all, then science rather than Dr Phillips tells us that it digests in 60 minutes. Now this having been said, Dr Bond notices partially digested fish & chips in Mary Jane Kelly's stomach. Which means she ate within an hour before being killed. Time of Death on Kelly is difficult given the abuse of the body. But someone bought her a fish supper. Did that someone also buy Annie Chapman some food? And if this is the case, why does no vendor come up to say 'I saw the victim with this man who bought her food'? On the other hand, perhaps he buys the food first--fish & chips or whatever--alone and then walks about keeping an eye open for any inebriated but likely hungry lady tottering by. Is this how he makes contact? Nothing is said of any food in Eddowes or Nicholls. But Phillips also pms Stride. And she has potato, cheese and 'farinaceous edibles' in her tummy. Which she would have eaten around midnight. Now I still think Dr Phillips is right--he was going on the appearance of the blood and the stage of rigor. But you're right as well. She may have eaten something else that night. Possibly given by a benefactor who wasn't as generous as he at first appeared.

[erobitha]

I am prone to the odd kebab after a few jars myself.

I don't think we can realistically put too much weight on a witnesses statement of when somebody was eatling a potato and then attempt to try scientifically link the fact to time of death. The numerous variables in this approach, is well, variable. She could have eaten something else later. Her digetsive system may not have operated at the rate you have calculated. Hot food digests quicker than cold food - do we know the temprature of the said potato? How big was this potato?

However, you can probably bet all your chips that Annie was most certainly mashed.

[Chava]

I am prone to the odd kebab after a few jars myself.

I don't think we can realistically put too much weight on a witnesses statement of when somebody was eatling a potato and then attempt to try scientifically link the fact to time of death. The numerous variables in this approach, is well, variable. She could have eaten something else later. Her digetsive system may not have operated at the rate you have calculated. Hot food digests quicker than cold food - do we know the temprature of the said potato? How big was this potato?

However, you can probably bet all your chips that Annie was most certainly mashed.

Well apparently digestive systems just go ahead and digest. I checked. Nothing in her condition would make her digest food any slower. Now she could have eaten something later. But she had no money. Therefore someone gave her food. Possibly the killer. However Phillips does not suggest that the food was freshly eaten. So perhaps the killer spent time with her before striking. Which is entirely possible. Annie didn't buy food. And Annie was all about alcohol. And she needed to get her doss-money. She may have walked the streets for a while with her murderer. She may have picked up a half-eaten pie off the street. All these things are possible. But however she got what she ate, she was killed within an hour of having eaten it. Either she eats that potato and is dead by 3.00 am-3.30 am. Or she eats something else at 4.15 am-4.30 am. And is dead at around 5.20 am. Annie has eaten already. Would she pick up some discarded rubbish and eat it? Maybe. But Phillips doesn't just base his TOD on that potato but also on the state of the blood around the body. In his opinion it wasn't fresh. And since blood does congeal and change appearance with some regularity, I'll go along with that.

[Chava]

Fun fact. I've done some checking. 4 out of 5 canonical victims have partly digested food in their stomachs at time of death. Chapman has her potato (btw where did she get it?), Stride has cheese, potato and other farinaceous material. Eddowes has 'partially digested farinaceous material'. Kelly has the remains of what sounds like a fish supper: fish potatoes and other farinaceous material. This means that all of these victims were killed within an hour of eating--and Kelly, given how entirely identifiable that food was, earlier than that. Which is not remarkable in Stride's case because she may easily have obtained some food before she's killed. May not be remarkable in Chapman's case except that IMO it causes problems with the perceived TOD. But is remarkable in the cases of Eddowes and Kelly. Eddowes had been released from Bishopsgate Nick at 1.00 am and she had no money. There is no record of her having eaten anything while in the cell. Is it possible--as I have asked above--that the killer offers his victims food? If that's how he approaches them? In the case of Kelly, Cox sees her walk in with (my favourite suspect) Mr Blotchy. But he's only carrying a can of ale. If he sticks around to murder her, then he must have fed her before they turned in, and she's dead by shortly after she stops singing at 1.30 am. The living skin rash known as Hutchinson describes Kelly meeting a man right in front of him. But nothing in that extraordinarily-detailed description says that he's carrying any kind of food. And Hutch says she tried to grift some money from him. So it's unlikely she bought her supper for herself. Kelly's TOD is up for grabs. That body was so abused that I'm sure no normal rules of rigor etc would apply. That cry of 'murder' may have been her. May not. But the stomach contents would be the stomach contents. She stops digesting at TOD. And she's got recognizable food in her stomach. As for Eddowes, no one comes forward from a coffee stall or whatever to claim they saw Eddowes buying food or having it bought for her.

So somehow these completely indigent women ate something. And they ate it within an hour of their deaths. Does the killer present as a benefactor? Someone who looks after the women in the street, cares about them etc? Because as far as I know no one has cared about the stomach contents. And I think we should. Sometimes a potato is more than a potato!

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Certainly an interesting theory Chava. Not a bad idea at all. Chapman and Kelly are maybe harder to reconcile in that theory, Chapman at any rate, accepting food from a benefactor and subsequently going to a quite spot to get down to business. But it doesn't rule it out.

I will say, and it's entirely a personal thing, but having seen the contents of stomachs in all their glory, digestion isn't an exact science. Lots of things affect it. I've seen whole undigested food vomited up 15 hours after eating. It smelled the same as when as when it was cooked, but I wasn't tempted to eat it.

He had to approach them somehow though, particularly after Annie, when a full blown killer was on the streets. Cold, hungry, wary, why not trust a guy sharing his fish and chips?

[Parisi North Humber]

Certainly an interesting theory Chava. Not a bad idea at all. Chapman and Kelly are maybe harder to reconcile in that theory, Chapman at any rate, accepting food from a benefactor and subsequently going to a quite spot to get down to business. But it doesn't rule it out.

I will say, and it's entirely a personal thing, but having seen the contents of stomachs in all their glory, digestion isn't an exact science. Lots of things affect it. I've seen whole undigested food vomited up 15 hours after eating. It smelled the same as when as when it was cooked, but I wasn't tempted to eat it.

He had to approach them somehow though, particularly after Annie, when a full blown killer was on the streets. Cold, hungry, wary, why not trust a guy sharing his fish and chips?

I concur with all the above Al.

MY daughter has C.V.S. and can vomit totally undigested food three days after consumption.

Also many things affect digestion rates. Medication such as opioids can slow it down (we know Annie had pills), also certain illnesses, (Annie was malnourished and had TB), the difference in metabolic rates alter digestion times (someone with hypothermia would have a sluggish digestive transit compared to someone who had just exercised heavily) even age can slow digestion. So to my mind without knowing what her stomach contained, how much and how far through the digestive process the contents were I cannot see it helping to pinpoint her ToD.

Helen x

[Herlock Sholmes]

One of the points that Chava raised is one that I’d intended to raise on the Richardson thread as an attempt has been made to compare Chapman to Eddowes and her TOD. Additionally we have to remember of course is that it has been assumed that Annie had potatoes in her stomach when Phillips only mentioned ‘food.’

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Helen,

I've never encountered diagnosed C.V.S, but I've seen similar conditions, where vomiting isn't related to factors like illness or overeating. The food sits in the stomach undigested until it's vomited, many hours later. Similarly, long term drinkers and alcoholics can lose the ability to digest efficiently as the stomach gets damaged. But, we're told consistently that potatoes only take an hour to be fully digested, so that's that.

[Parisi North Humber]

Apparently it used to be called abdominal migrains. My daughter"s whole digestive system shuts down. She can't even take medication in the traditional oral route she has to have pain killers in suppository form and in a nasal spray and has to take anti emetics in buccal form to bypass the digestive system completely. Sorry if that was off topic, I just wanted to point out from experience that digestion transit time is not an exact science.
I would have thought that digestion time even of a lowly potato would vary on how it was cooked? Fried food takes longer to digest and baked potato skins would take even longer. But as you say Al we are told it's an hour so what do I know.

Helen x

[DJA]

One of the points that Chava raised is one that I’d intended to raise on the Richardson thread as an attempt has been made to compare Chapman to Eddowes and her TOD. Additionally we have to remember of course is that it has been assumed that Annie had potatoes in her stomach when Phillips only mentioned ‘food.’

You have had two years to do so

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have had two years to do so

I never knew this thread existed until this morning when I saw the post.