Richardson's View

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Here is MJK2 ......

Cheers for that Dave, posted in context. I think what it shows, is that regardless of any perceived motive, that's beyond inhuman, regardless of how many times I've seen it.

Also, the light is the photographers flash bulb. It's nothing to do with the angle of the door. Or the location of the knob.

And yes, I know it was Michael that mentioned the light in MJK2, but I'm guessing he'll read this. If he meant the MJK 3 pic, with the strip of light, well that's a different debate.

[DJA]

Here is MJK2 ......

[Michael W Richards]

Wrong side.

To be fair this issue has had some discussions here in the past, but if you think in just practical terms, factoring in the bumped furniture when the police entered, the crack of light shown in MJK images, and the practicality of entering a room directly vs entering to a corner then in around a door, you might gather that the door inward swung towards the windowed wall. The light shown in the MJK2 image is from the door being opened a crack.

[Robert St Devil]

Courtesy of someone else.

doorknob

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Which means the door didn't fit snugly into the frame. All you'd need to do would be to run a blade up from the bottom to lift it and get into the house. Now someone knew that. Was it Annie or was it Jack?
Also this is the first of two occasions where the latch was how you'd get in as long as you knew the secret. The latch on Kelley's room was easy-to-access as well. In that case she'd lost the key. So used the latch to look like the door was locked. It's certainly possible her killer knew that and knew how to get into the room.

Mrs Richardson reveals the secret, MA0913:

The front and back doors are always left open. You have only to raise the latch with your finger and you can go in any of the houses about there.

[DJA]

If there is a pic of Kelly's door showing the lock, then that's terrific. But I've been on this case for decades and on this site for a very long time and I don't recall seeing it.

Courtesy of "sgh" circa 2009.


Courtesy of someone else.

[DJA]

If there is a pic of Kelly's door showing the lock, then that's terrific. But I've been on this case for decades and on this site for a very long time and I don't recall seeing it. It's possible 13 Millers Court had a spring lock--they were cheap. It's also possible it had a deadlock which may have been even cheaper because old-fashioned and out of style.

Of course the locks provided by Mr McCarthy may not have been the very best locks. Lizzie Prater certainly didn't trust hers. She had 2 tables pushed across the door to barricade it before she relaxed enough to go to bed. Not at all impossible that Mary Jane asked Joe Barnett to fix a bolt up to give her more security. Unlike Lizzie, she didn't have 2 tables...

Might have been an enhanced MJK3 with better detail.

[DJA]

As for Marys door latch, it was a Spring Latch, engaged to lock when the door closed and when left in the "open" position. It was on the left hand side, (from inside the room), of the door, it swung open to the right from the outside. It wouldnt be as easy as one might think to access it through the broken window pane.

Wrong side.

[Chava]

Easier if you use the search facility.

Really not interesting in arguing about what you think.

Bob Hinton posted those over 15 years ago.
Should be self explanatory.

Anyone have the MJK photo of the door? Haven't shifted some of my files to this new computer.

If there is a pic of Kelly's door showing the lock, then that's terrific. But I've been on this case for decades and on this site for a very long time and I don't recall seeing it. It's possible 13 Millers Court had a spring lock--they were cheap. It's also possible it had a deadlock which may have been even cheaper because old-fashioned and out of style.

Of course the locks provided by Mr McCarthy may not have been the very best locks. Lizzie Prater certainly didn't trust hers. She had 2 tables pushed across the door to barricade it before she relaxed enough to go to bed. Not at all impossible that Mary Jane asked Joe Barnett to fix a bolt up to give her more security. Unlike Lizzie, she didn't have 2 tables...

[Michael W Richards]

As for Marys door latch, it was a Spring Latch, engaged to lock when the door closed and when left in the "open" position. It was on the left hand side, (from inside the room), of the door, it swung open to the right from the outside. It wouldnt be as easy as one might think to access it through the broken window pane.

plus...we have evidence that 2 people heard, at the same time, a female voice "as if from the court", or "as if at the door" in Sarah Lewis's case. A live female in that courtyard, or standing by her door open to the courtyard...at almost 4am. I cant see any reason to suspect it was anyone but Kelly herself, no-one claimed to own that voice, and Mary certainly couldnt have claimed it later.

[DJA]

In actual fact Phillips suggested anatomical knowledge was indicated to him, but he did not state....at the Inquest anyway, that only post mortem experience could explain the displayed skill/knowledge. He did say that the weapon used did not match those used in post mortem rooms. He was complimentary on what he perceived as evident skill sets, but thats as far as he went.

Suggesting that he stated that ONLY a person well versed in post mortem dissections...as you did..is misleading.

The Coroner obviously interpreted Phillips testimony differently to yourself.

Don't accuse me of misleading by quoting the actual Inquest as reported.

Especially when you have chosen to mangle Phillips testimony beyond belief,as is your usual form.

[DJA]

Easier if you use the search facility.

Really not interesting in arguing about what you think.

Bob Hinton posted those over 15 years ago.
Should be self explanatory.

Anyone have the MJK photo of the door? Haven't shifted some of my files to this new computer.

[Chava]

[QUOTE=DJA;n743621]No it doesn't.

OK. Could you walk me through Mary Kelly's use of that door lock please.

Or rather can you walk me through your understanding of that door lock please? Because the only way it can be used in the manner you describe is to lean through and hit the sneck after you leave the house so that a key would be useless. And lean through and release the snack when you return so that the door swings open. It's possible she did this. But it's not that likely in my opinion given that any variation of the button for the sneck that I remember from all those many years ago when I was a child in the 50s was actually quite small and not easily accessed at all no matter how long Kelly's arm was. And I'm sure it wasn't any bigger in the 1880s since the bigger the sneck the more expensive the lock was to manufacture. However it was common for a bolt on a door for extra security once the tenant was inside. And it's that bolt I believe Kelly used. Pushing it forward or engage it to 'lock' the door when she left. Pulling it back or off its holder to open the door when she returned. It makes a lot more sense than the idea of Kelly fumbling around for hours trying to set/release the sneck.

[DJA]

No it doesn't.

Just type "lock" into this site's search bar.

[Chava]

Chava,

"Moved back the catch" which I have referred to as a button,although it was larger back then.

Suggest going back over numerous threads where this had been discussed ad nauseam for decades.

Below is a much later lock,however the catch is moved up and down.

Yeah I know. I grew up with locks like that. However they were called 'locks'. And the doors I've seen in the old houses in the East End also had bolts to draw across to avoid someone breaking in via the lock. That surely is what was on the door of 13 Millers Court. The bolt. Which you could lean through the window and draw so the door would look locked if anyone tried to push. It's the only thing that makes sense. Sorry if this has been discussed before but it merits discussing again.