John Richardson sitting on the step

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Rocky

Chapman knew Richardson.

Is that confirmed?

Is it possible the thud was the moving of the body?

We still have to account for the woman's voice exclaiming "No!" moments before the thud.

[RockySullivan]

Hello RockyIs that confirmed?We still have to account for the woman's voice exclaiming "No!" moments before the thud.

Yes chapman was known to the richardsons. The certainly sound like a murder but in reality it could have mrs Richardson. After all it wasn't a bloody murder scream

[Sam Flynn]

After all it wasn't a bloody murder scream

The simplicity of a mere "No!" might suggest a certain sad realisation of one's impending demise, though, Rocky. I still think it likely that it was Chapman's last pathetic whimper that Cadoche heard.

[Rosella]

Rocky, could you please tell me where you got the info that Chapman knew Richardson, as I would be interested to know? It might point to why Annie was quite OK about using the back yard at no. 29 when it was getting towards daylight.

We really don't know what that last 'No' was about, as Albert went back inside for a few minutes. It could have been a conversation about whether they could be overseen or the client asking Annie if she had change for a threepenny bit, for all we know!

With regard to Dr Phillip's estimation of the time of Annie's demise, there's been quite a conversation going on on the JTRF about Victorian doctors' observations as well as here on Facebook. I'm not sure whether Trevor Marriott has posted these on Facebook, but in the unlikely event that he hasn't I'm quoting here what a modern day forensic pathologist wrote in answer to his questions on this subject.

'In the olden days doctors used to state a confident and precise 'time of death' based on subjective observations, but this was little more than guesswork' and 'In fact the official guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator is that pathologists shouldn't even attempt to estimate the postmortem interval! Even with a measured temperature you couldn't estimate a time since death to within a few hours.'

So much for all those Christie novels etc where the police surgeon pronounces almost down to the hour!

[RockySullivan]

Rocky, could you please tell me where you got the info that Chapman knew Richardson, as I would be interested to know? It might point to why Annie was quite OK about using the back yard at no. 29 when it was getting towards daylight.

We really don't know what that last 'No' was about, as Albert went back inside for a few minutes. It could have been a conversation about whether they could be overseen or the client asking Annie if she had change for a threepenny bit, for all we know!

With regard to Dr Phillip's estimation of the time of Annie's demise, there's been quite a conversation going on on the JTRF about Victorian doctors' observations as well as here on Facebook. I'm not sure whether Trevor Marriott has posted these on Facebook, but in the unlikely event that he hasn't I'm quoting here what a modern day forensic pathologist wrote in answer to his questions on this subject.

'In the olden days doctors used to state a confident and precise 'time of death' based on subjective observations, but this was little more than guesswork' and 'In fact the official guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator is that pathologists shouldn't even attempt to estimate the postmortem interval! Even with a measured temperature you couldn't estimate a time since death to within a few hours.'

So much for all those Christie novels etc where the police surgeon pronounces almost down to the hour!

I dont trust doctors...witnesses are less reliable...but something is very off about Richardson. I'm not saying philips was right...but Richardson lied a number of times and I don't trust his account. I will have to look for the statement but Mrs. Richardson was asked if she knew chapman and she said yes she knew dark annie..I think Chapman did some work at 29 hanbury or sold something there?

What about the clean water? Wouldn't the ripper have bloody hands? Why wouldn't he wash in the water? I don't see any reason why he wouldnt take advantage of clean pale of water.

[Rosella]

A dustman (garbage collector) apparently reported after Annie was found that he had seen a bloodstained male walking down Hanbury St early that morning, so maybe Jack didn't, or maybe he just used a few splashes of the water from the nearby tap to scrub his hands with a piece of cloth he may have had with him for souvenirs.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello RockyIs that confirmed?We still have to account for the woman's voice exclaiming "No!" moments before the thud.

Yeah, Like Sam said.