John Richardson sitting on the step

[lynn cates]

the case

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Unofficially we read that many men carried some form of a knife."

Quite. But they were bright enough to keep their mouths shut.

"But a Leather apron really had nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders, did it."

But the Met THOUGHT it did. (And, actually, the aproned one had much more to do with Polly and Annie than one may imagine.)

"In itself, this is not unusual. Medical evidence at the Kelly inquest was inconclusive when compared with eyewitness testimony."

Indeed. But the reports from the Met fretted over it.

Did John do Annie? Hardly. But there can be made a tiny case.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

T.o.d.

Hi Colin
Quite rightly, one cannot ignore the witness testimonies of Long, and especially Cadosch, but I am interested in your view, as a retired Policeman, of the Police Surgeon`s estimate of a TOD of at the earliest 4.30am? Richardson was viewed with great suspicion at the time of the Inquest.

Hi Jon,

"The stiffness of the limbs was not marked but was evidently commencing" when Bagster Phillips arrived at the scene at 6.30am. Current medical opinion (and I confess to having done no more than research this on the internet) seems to be that rigor mortis commences after anything from 1 to 3 hours, depending on the circumstances (certainly a long way from Dr Bond's Kelly time of 6 hours.
If "evidently commencing" is an indication that the process is only just starting, presumably that points towards a TOD between about 3.30am & about 5.30am. On that basis it would be feasible for the murder to have occurred after Richardson's departure and for Cadosch's incident to be the sound of Annie's murder. Mrs Long's sighting would be, at best, right on the wire.
I should add that I don't think my police experience (or anybody else's) is of much use in this context because the issue (rigor mortis) is a medical one. I do recall a police surgeon saying that anyone who claimed to be able to give an exact time of death after examining a body was talking nonsense.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

I entirely agree, although according to Swanson's report dated 19th October, Cadosch's first visit to the yard was at 5.25am and his second 3 minutes later. The 5.15am time was when he got out of bed. If the Swanson report's time-line is accurate Cadosch's time estimate is only about 4 minutes away from Elizabeth Long's. Cadosch said that he heard something fall against the fence where the body was later found. If Annie was already dead, then whatever it was must have fallen on top of her body - and subsequently vanished.
I don't subscribe to the alternative suggestion that it was a different prostitute with her client finding the body and keeping quiet about it. I can accept that the yard may have been used quite regularly by prostitutes and their clients, but two of them in succession after 4am seems most unlikely. If Cadosch heard what he said he did, the sound was that of Annie Chapman falling to the floor in my view.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell,

Im still recovering from a post that agrees in principal with what I had posted...must be a blue moon.

2 things though.....Cadosche said he got up and went outside at 5:15am, putting him in the yard before 5:20am, and he heard a voice say "no" as well as the thud. Mrs Long was certain her sighting was at 5:30am because she took the time from the clock at the Black Eagle Brewery. Thats pretty clearly at least 10 minutes between accounts.

I think the evidence suggests Cadosche heard the murder begin.

Best regards Bridewell,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

tempus fugit

Hello Mike. Are you familiar with the conjecture that Mrs. Long heard the 5.15 strike--not the 5.30?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Are you familiar with the conjecture that Mrs. Long heard the 5.15 strike--not the 5.30?

Cheers.
LC

Im not familiar with that Lynn. Though I am familiar with what she supposedly said under oath....

"On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street."

Where did you hear she may have meant 5:15, Im curious?

Thanks Lynn, Cheers,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

dissertation

Hello Mike. Thanks. There is a dissertation, "Long vs. Cadosch" (or something of that sort). It claims that she mistook one for the other.

That would tie up a good many loose ends, if true.

Cheers.
LC

[Barnaby]

This should probably be the subject of another thread but here goes: Richardson admits to be sitting on a stoop with a knife in a place where the mutilated body of Chapman shortly is found. Cross/Lechmere is encountered by Paul in the immediate vicinity of the ripped body of Nichols. Of these two persons of interest, who is more suspicious?

[Damaso Marte]

Many people on this forum seem to believe that Long saw a different couple, and even that Cadosch's "no" was the sound of couple #2 discovering Chapman's body.

I personally find this ridiculous (whether I am whoring or not, my reaction to finding Chapman's body would be a bit more than a soft 'no'), but some smart people believe in it. I find it much more plausible that people from the 19th century were inaccurate in keeping and remembering time.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Many people on this forum seem to believe that Long saw a different couple, and even that Cadosch's "no" was the sound of couple #2 discovering Chapman's body.

I personally find this ridiculous (whether I am whoring or not, my reaction to finding Chapman's body would be a bit more than a soft 'no'), but some smart people believe in it. I find it much more plausible that people from the 19th century were inaccurate in keeping and remembering time.

I would break the mystery down into small parts:

1) Long stated she didn't take much notice of the couple. So, we're asked to believe that someone who, by her own admission, didn't take a great deal of notice; saw Annie.

2) Cadosche couldn't say where the no came from, but felt the thud came from no 29. By this time, Cadosche knows a murder has taken place in that yard and so his conclusion of where the sound came from is led, possibly, by an event. The no and the thud could have come from anywhere in the vicinity and could have been caused by any number of things.

3) Given the above, I would go with the doctor. Not really a close call in my view.

Back to Richardson. I agree with Jon in that he would have aroused my suspicion. Plus, he's back in the yard before the doctor arrives. Didn't he have work to do?

[Lechmere]

Barnaby
I'm not entirely sure of your point of view - but...
Richardson Placed himself - uncorroborated - on the step with a blunt knife and says he didn't see a body. He then came forward immediately and there are no inconsistencies - even ones that can be given innocent examinations - in his story.
Cross is found by the body by someone else. His story has numerous inconsistencies, he delayed in comIng forward until his role was mentioned in a newspaper.
You pays your money you takes your

Ok the slight details in Richardsons story are whether he was standing or sitting on the step and how much leather he cut with the blunt knife.

[Lechmere]

Richardson was clearly looked at by the police and his involvement was dismissed. This is another contrast. Cross clearly slipped through the interrogation net.

[Lechmere]

Also if I may...
This case is considerably weakened by reliance on an invented window watcher.
I would humbly suggest that all that needs to be said is this.
Richardson went to Hanbury Street in the course of his duties and he knew other people would know he was there at that time.
He saw Annie and got carried away (serial killers do sometimes pooh on their own doorstep).
He then invented the shoe and step business to alibi himself by putting the time of death later than his visit. He was lucky that Long and Cadoshe corroborated him.

[Jon Guy]

Also if I may...
This case is considerably weakened by reliance on an invented window watcher.
I would humbly suggest that all that needs to be said is this.
Richardson went to Hanbury Street in the course of his duties and he knew other people would know he was there at that time.
He saw Annie and got carried away (serial killers do sometimes pooh on their own doorstep).
He then invented the shoe and step business to alibi himself by putting the time of death later than his visit. He was lucky that Long and Cadoshe corroborated him.

Thanks for the summing up, Lechmere, and thanks for reminding me that Richardson had encountered and removed prostitutes from the passageway and yard of number 29 previously.

Oh, and there`s no case been made here, no invented window watcher or any reliance upon this voyeur.

[Lechmere]

I'm wondering what connections Richardson had with the other murder scenes.
Or was this one of those 'one offs' that it is fashionable in some quarters to reduce the 'Whitechapel Murders' to.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lechmere,

Just noted you stated that Long and Cadosche corroberated Richardson. Its very likely by the timing none of those 3 people saw Annie....Richardson said he saw nothing, its probable that Long did not see Annie, and Cadosche didnt see Annie.

The murder it would seem took place after Richardsons visit to the steps and around the time of Cadosche's "no" and thud.

Best regards,

Mike R