No Bloody Piece of Apron

[perrymason]

G'day all,

I think when you factor in a local man with little or no money, Ben's point on his experiences with Annie Chapman's organs is an important one....just how many coats would a poor man have to purchase if he just ruins his coat when he takes organs? Kate was wearing everything she owned, these people had nothing, so I dont believe, if he was a poor local man, that he would pop bloody organs in a coat he had to wear everyday.

Meaning if he intended to take Annie organs, as was suggested by the medical authority, then I believe he was prepared for Annie with some type of carryall rag. Perhaps in Kates case the choosing of organs was a decision made on the spot by the killer, or perhaps the apron was his choice... rather than what he brought for the purpose, or perhaps the apron was just to clean his hands.

The fact that he had even less desirable substances on him than just blood this time might have made him take the cloth, as Sam said.

But he cut and tore the cloth, in an empty square or courtyard, causing noise that puts him in greater risk for being caught. I dont believe the killer was incapable of some planning for events, he does escape without leaving traces to the astonishment of many police, so to make the noise required to sever that apron piece I believe bestows some importance on the object, rather than a mere hanky. He could have easily wiped his hands on her clothing.

Best regards all.

[Wickerman]

The old idea that the piece of apron (testified as 'half' the apron), was cut off and carried several streets to be dumped in a lighted doorway has always seemed a strained hypothesis.

Wiping your hands takes seconds, dumping the cloth as he leaves Mitre Sq. would be expected, but not to carry it through the streets, IF, all he was needing it for was to wipe his hands, and knife.
P.C. Long did testify that part of the severed piece of apron was "wet with blood", and, had "blood stains" (Daily Telegraph, Oct 12th). Wiping blood off your hands does not 'wet' the cloth, blood stains are smears they are not wet like water. However, an organ oozing blood while wrapped in such a cloth could very well leave the cloth 'wet'.
Of course we are attempting to determine what was meant by 'wet', but the record does mention both "blood stains" and "wet with blood", not one or the other, but both.

[perrymason]

The old idea that the piece of apron (testified as 'half' the apron), was cut off and carried several streets to be dumped in a lighted doorway has always seemed a strained hypothesis.

Wiping your hands takes seconds, dumping the cloth as he leaves Mitre Sq. would be expected, but not to carry it through the streets, IF, all he was needing it for was to wipe his hands, and knife.

P.C. Long did testify that part of the severed piece of apron was "wet with blood", and, had "blood stains" (Daily Telegraph, Oct 12th). Wiping blood off your hands does not 'wet' the cloth, blood stains are smears they are not wet like water. However, an organ oozing blood while wrapped in such a cloth could very well leave the cloth 'wet'.
Of course we are attempting to determine what was meant by 'wet', but the record does mention both "blood stains" and "wet with blood", not one or the other, but both.

Hi Wickerman,

The section I emboldened is the crux.....If for cleaning only, he would not need to carry the cloth for perhaps 10 minutes, he would wipe and drop it soon after leaving Mitre.

Best regards, good points.

[Monty]

As could an apron, the corner of which may have been either lying in the open body or in a gathering of blood whilst someone was mutilating Eddowes.

[Sam Flynn]

Wiping your hands takes seconds.

Not necessarily, when they're covered in fæcal matter that you've just smeared over a woman's entrails, Jon. In fact, the smearing onto the intestines itself might have been an initial, unsuccessful, effort at removing the contaminant.

Edit: Sorry - just noticed that this was a Chapman thread.

[perrymason]

As could an apron, the corner of which may have been either lying in the open body or in a gathering of blood whilst someone was mutilating Eddowes.

Which seems to make the article of little concern to him while he is still over the woman Monty, if he is allowing it to soak up blood. For a carryall, or a hand wipe, it becomes less useful each minute it is drawing up blood.

If just for a hand wipe, then why carry it to Goulston, if just for organs, and to save his coat pockets, then why drop it before reaching home?

Best regards Monty, as always.

[Ben]

I agree, Mike.

I'm sure it was used initially as a hand-wipe (i.e. at the scene), but I don't think that alone would account for it being taken away and disposed of where it was. It wouldn't explain why it was removed.

Regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike/All,

If just for a hand wipe, then why carry it to Goulston, if just for organs, and to save his coat pockets, then why drop it before reaching home?

I've responded to this on an appropriate Eddowes/apron thread, here.

This is a Chapman thread.

[perrymason]

Sorry Sam, although its hard to imagine a story for the Chapman apron that doesnt involve addressing the other known time(s) he has taken organs, and the same issues that presented themselves.

He gets blood on him I think each time, how much may depend on how deeply he plunges his hands into the opened abdomens, ...so blood need not be addressed by a hanky or apron piece if he encounters it every kill,... he likely wears gloves. The bloody cuffs on the Batty Street Lodgers shirts might be all he usually gets on him. But with Annie the question is did he intend to take organs that time? The medical professional in charge thought it was his goal to do so,....and if so, he likely would have prepared for the taking of bloody flesh, so as not to ruin his coat.

Perhaps thats why Annies apron only had the inner pocket cut, and not a section of the apron...he already had something for the organs, because he intended to take some.

Best regards.

[Chava]

That profiler I had a chat with suggested that from what I'd told him, the Ripper most likely anticipated taking trophies, and brought something with him to transport them. He may not always have brought the same receptacle. The blood patterns on the cloth in the Eddowes case don't sound like the cloth was used to wrap anything up. So it's certainly possible it was hacked off to clean his hands with. I imagine he had something with him in the Chapman murder. It didn't have to be anything visible, he could have brought a paper bag in his pocket.