No Bloody Piece of Apron

[Observer]

Hi Caz

That scenario escaped me. Use the apron as a carrying device and return home, and then after depositing the organs, and knife, return to Goulston Street with a piece of chalk write the message and discard the apron next to the chalked message in order to link the two. This would also imply that he lived near to Goulston Street.

Observer

[caz]

Hi All,

For those who argue that the killer needed to get his hands mess and smell free on his way back to base, and therefore took the apron piece for that purpose only, why discard it in Goulston Street? Because it was too incriminating to risk taking any further? Too messy and smelly? Perfectly fair on both counts.

But it was incriminating full stop - from the moment he separated it from its owner and decided to take it from the scene. And if he only took it to deal with the mess and smell on his hands, that mess and smell was with him full stop - from the same moment, regardless of what got transferred from hands or knife to cloth and when.

The most dangerous part of his journey back to base would undoubtedly have been the first part, made doubly dangerous by the large, tell-tale apron piece and the mess and smell that accompanied him every step of the way to Goulston, over and above the bodily trophies and murder weapon.

But he presumably considered it safe enough to take the organs and knife (and any residual stains on skin or clothing) right back to base with him, and was also prepared to convey the apron piece and his evil smell as far as Goulston. So I'm not sure I can buy the whole argument: that he needed to take a piece of Kate's apron with him in the first place; needed it with him until he had put several streets between himself and the crime; then needed it gone by that point - and that the only reason for the entire risky palaver was to sweeten his little hand with it. Seems to me he needed that apron piece with him like he needed a hole in the head - or a piece of chalk.

It's only a short stretch from there to that sweet little hand round the chalk, after having dropped off his incriminating trophies and his incriminating knife, cleaned himself up and removed any incriminating stains, then wondered how best to dispose of the worst of the lot - his victim's pinny. On the fire? Ripped to shreds and put out with the garbage? Down the drain? Or left in all its smelly, incriminating glory in the entrance of a building housing Jews?

Love,

Caz
X

[Observer]

Hi

Fact, the killer cuts a section of Eddowes apron and takes it with him.

Fact, It is retrieved by a constable in Goulston Street, a five minute walk away from Mitre Square

Why the delay in discarding the apron section?

By all accounts the apron section was quite substantial, too big to bundle into one of the killers pockets. But why would he want to soil his pockets with incriminating blood and faeces anyway, he also had Eddowes kidney and womb on his person?

It would be logical to assume that the killer used Eddowes apron to wrap the organs in but for one fact, he discarded the apron section in Goulston Street, if he had used the apron to carry the organs in what did he do with the organs? Three things spring to mind here

1. The apron section was not used as a carrying device, the killer pre planned the whole affair, and took some kind of bag in which to place the organs, the apron was cut away merely in order to wipe his hands. There are some problems with this scenario as Lawende did not mention his suspect carrying a bag. Of course the killer could have used a collapsible bag, and had it concealed on his person. If the apron piece was used exclusively to wipe his hands surely he would have discarded it at the murder scene.

2. The killer used the apron as a carrying device and discarded the organs shortly after discarding the apron, the problem here is why were the organs not found?

3. The killer used the apron as a carrying device, and for some reason only known to the killer he decided to take the organs from the apron in Goulston Street, leave the apron (possibly next to a message he had written on the wall) and carry on home with the organs. If he used the apron to carry the organs and discarded it in Goulston Street, then it is possible that he lived very near to where he discarded it, it would then be a matter of simply carrying the organs until he reached his abode.

Observer

[Mitch Rowe]

The killer could have easily wiped his hands on her apron at the scene.
However He took the time to cut the apron from her, not to transport the organ, as he would have planed to bring something along to place the organs into and transport it. I believe he wanted to scare Mary.
NOV9

Well..We dont know what JTR was thinking at the time. Perhaps he felt he didnt have enough time to completely clean his hands at the scene. It was dark and if he didnt get his hands clean the first time then he may be SOL without a rag unless he cuts from his own clothing.
The fact that JTR took the apron could be a clue that says JTR may have been worried his wife or some-one else would be seeing his hands soon and they had better be free of blood and feces.
JTR did take a risk by taking part of Eddowes apron with him. That could even be part of the excitement of it all.

[Doctor X]

How you get from:

The killer could have easily wiped his hands on her apron at the scene. However He took the time to cut the apron from her, not to transport the organ, as he would have planed to bring something along to place the organs into and transport it.

to:

I believe he wanted to scare Mary.

?

Seems there are like large space thingies between those claims and that conclusion.

--J.D.

Just a quick reply to Sam.....

Your counters are all sensible Sam, as usual, but there is an implied complacency with having his hands still needing shite wiped from them as far from Mitre Square as Goulston St, that I cant buy.

Just because he can stomach blood and guts doesnt mean he couldnt be grossed out by someones shite on his person.

I agree with the notion his hands were cleaned with a rag of some sort at the scene, after perhaps wiping some on Kate as you suggest, and the reason we dont have that cloth is because he couldnt leave it....the apron piece, once empty, he could...because it only tracked to "a" killer, no-one specific, like a personal hanky might have done.

I think we are looking at a night where he has two carryalls available, and one was improvised on site when the primary carryall got used for something that was at the time more important than the organs after he cuts the colon, getting her guck off his hands.

Cheers Gareth, best regards.

[NOV9]

The amount of "seepage" from a "wet" organ could easily be camouflaged by the typical dense, dark fabric of a Late Victorian's pocket. The one thing that sets Eddowes' murder apart from the others is the indisputable presence of faecal matter in conjunction with the corpse. The leaving of dubious "signals" aside, the most obvious reason for the removal of the swatch of apron cloth was that Jack got his hands covered in excrement, and felt compelled to wipe it off.

Sam,

The killer could have easily wiped his hands on her apron at the scene.
However He took the time to cut the apron from her, not to transport the organ, as he would have planed to bring something along to place the organs into and transport it. I believe he wanted to scare Mary.

NOV9

[Trevor Marriott]

I guess its a question of how everyones perception is regarding the various decsriptions of the apron piece.

I myself have been working on the basis that the apron piece was described as having a smearing of faeceal matter.

Now if he had wiped his hands on the piece there would have been more than a smearing I would suggest. There would mots certainly have been a mixture of blood and faecal matter incoproptared in the same stain.

Again everyone here can do another simple excersise get two different pots of watered down paint one red the other brown dip the hands in it and the wipe it on a white cloth see what size stain it produces and the colour of that stain.

This will go along way to show he didnt wipe his hands on the apron piece

[c.d.]

Are we to believe that Jack targeted Kate because she had an apron?

c.d.

Dan buys groceries and shopkeeper gives him a bag to carry them home in.

Dan walks halfway home then discards the bag.

Whats the point of Dan taking the bag when he procedes to carry his groceries the rest of the way home?

Monty.

Monty,

Now why would Dan discard the bag while he still had Groceries to carry? And Why take the bag at all if not needed to carry items all the way home?

Again....shite and blood in anyones pocket, even a drooling incapable madman as many like to imagine him apparently, is still very easily avoidable by taking cloth to use to transport the mess.....hmm. Tough choice, but Ill take the answer that doesnt make him a complete idiot.

Since we have no records of any such potential carryall being left anywhere after the removal of Annies organs, it is quite possible that he might have used a personal cloth before, like even a monogrammed hanky, and therefore he could not leave it behind. That would be the same reason that he wouldnt discard the cloth that he wipes the shite off his hands with, and then has to resort to a makeshift for carryall.


Best Regards.

Jill robs a bank and then steals a car to make a getaway. Jill takes money home and then discards car. Cop finds car, but no money. Thus Jill didn't rob the bank.

What?

As I was reading your post I was searching for my own logical pathway to help illustrate the same point.

For the truth of the matter is probably more like Jack cuts organs out, but Jack also cuts a colon section this time, which means that Jack gets feces on himself this time, so Jack being capable of thought uses the cloth intended to carry organs in, to clean himself,.. Jack now needs a new carryall, so Jack cuts a suitable piece of cloth cloth off Kate, Jack puts organs and knife and wraps them in the cloth, the size of which would easily aid in hiding stains because of multiple fabric layers as a result of the rolling items inside it, Jack splits.

Sometime between 2 and 3, he leaves the cloth, because its now empty. Barring Jack the Magician...that means he either chucked, or saved, whats inside.

Since I believe he sought organs, I doubt that "chucked" is the answer, and if the apron was there for the constables first pass, Jack almost certainly had dropped off the items first, and was on route home.

However, If the apron section was not there until just before 3am, then there is no need to conclude that where he dropped it was on route home anymore. He had time to drop the organs anywhere close, and place the apron anywhere, possibly where it would appear as if we have a hasty East End retreat after Mitre. But he could have actually gone further into the City to drop off organs, and backtracked using alleys and lanes to the East End in Goulston to set the apron...and maybe write the message.

Of course we cant know if it was there earlier....we'll never know, but I for one figure this guy thought ahead...organs, carryall, escape routes, maybe cops beats, ...and a casual discard seems too convenient, and not smart.

My best regards.

[Monty]

Dan buys groceries and shopkeeper gives him a bag to carry them home in.

Dan walks halfway home then discards the bag.

Whats the point of Dan taking the bag when he procedes to carry his groceries the rest of the way home?

Monty.

[Dan Norder]

Jill robs a bank and then steals a car to make a getaway. Jill takes money home and then discards car. Cop finds car, but no money. Thus Jill didn't rob the bank.

What?

[Monty]

Simplify

Jack takes apron to carry organs.

Jack disgards apron.

Long finds apron.

Long doesnt find organs.

Simple and most logical explanation?

The apron wasnt used to carry organs.

Monty

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Well I for one don't have any problem with envisioning Jack as someone who acts in a rational manner on some occasions and who also acts irrationally at other times. This would put him in accord with most human behavior. You also have to factor in the emotional aspect and the thrill of the kill. All of that adrenaline might interrupt the thought processes.

I can see calculating and spur of the moment living happily side by side.

c.d.