Lack of blood on No.29 Hanbury Street doors

[RedBundy13]

Tom

Yes! That was exactly it! Nice job on finding it!! I looked a little yesterday but couldn't come up with where I'd seen it. And your also right it was urine not mud that the blood was determined to be, which now that I think about it makes even less sense but what do I know I wasn't there and never got a chance to see it. The only thing I can say is that what in the heck was going on with that persons kidneys if it looked like blood he was pissing? Thanks again, nice research!

[Jon Guy]

The stain discovered by Laura Sickings (Siekings) at No. 25 was also discussed at the Inquest:

[Coroner] Was it (blood) on any of the other yards?
[Inspector Chandler] No
[Coroner] Were there no other marks?
[Inspector Chandler] There were marks discovered on the wall of No. 25. They were noticed on Tuesday afternoon. They have been seen by Dr. Phillips.


[Coroner] You were shown some staining on the wall of No. 25, Hanbury-street?
[Dr Phillips] Yes; that was yesterday morning. To the eye of a novice I have no doubt it looks like blood. I have not been able to trace any signs of it. I have not been able to finish my investigation. I am almost convinced I shall not find any blood.


Also, there does not appear to be any traces of blood on the portion of envelope, and other items of Chapman`s found near the body.

What does that imply?

That the Ripper didn`t place them there by design after the onslaught?
The items just fell from a pocket or purse as the Ripper was throwing her skirts up?
Her pockets were emptied at some point before he cut her throat?

[lynn cates]

cut pocket

Hello Jon. Good point. If I recall properly, Annie's pocket was cut through before it was ransacked.

May imply that she was strangled, then her rings wrenched away and her pocket ransacked. THEN her throat cut and mutilations perpetrated.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Sounds sensible, Lynn, although it could add credence to the pertinent theory that she was made to empty her own pockets?

[lynn cates]

redundant?

Hello Jon. Well, if Annie did--and she might have--would not the cutting be redundant? Perhaps there is another reason?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

How would you convince Annie to willingly empty her pockets without her taking that opportunity to scream her head off?
They're in someone's backyard, they are surrounded by people, all she has to do is make a disturbance...

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

moot?

Hello Jon. Don't know. But it may be a moot point given the sliced pocket.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Which then must beg the question, what could an aging common prostitute like Annie have in her pockets worthy of risking capture by asking her to empty them?
Less risky to slice them open once she has been silenced, nevertheless robbery is hardly the motive.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

How would you convince Annie to willingly empty her pockets without her taking that opportunity to scream her head off?

That's remarkably naive. You DO understand this is how mugging has been such a successful source of income for millenia, right? Most people who are held at the end of a weapon and told to give up their cash, or do whatever, do what they're told in hope the bad guy will get what he wants and leave. The prospect of injury is all to real if you scream under those circumstances. Sure, the guy might be seen, might even get caught, but that would be little solace to Annie as she lay there bleeding from the hole in her gut.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

delusion

Hello Jon. Well, if the lad that I have in mind killed Annie, it would have been a delusional afterthought.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Well Lynn, seeing as how none of these women were found with the price of a liason on their person, as might be expected if he had won their confidence by paying them up front.
In that case then not necessarily a delusional afterthought to simply rumage to retrieve his fee? Though this hardly counts as robbery, but still demonstrates a cool confidence, especially if he heard the Davis family stiring upstairs.

Wasting precious time mugging your victim before you murder her when you have no idea how many seconds you have is to say the least counterproductive.

Regards, Jon S.

[RedBundy13]

Mugged or not

But arent most muggings generally noisey anyways? Usually in my thought the person with the knife or gun raises their voice to intimidate the victim. Again generally, not always, Im sure there are cases where the perp came up behind the victim and wispered to them, or maybe the mugger was just hushed anyways? But my opinion is either, if she was mugged, it would have to have been before Cadoche was making his trips and in that case she would have already been dead before he made his first trip to the privy. Or if she was killed when Cadoche says he heard something then she wasnt mugged. Just my guess

[lynn cates]

punctus contra punctum

Hello Jon.

"Well Lynn, seeing as how none of these women were found with the price of a liason on their person, as might be expected if he had won their confidence by paying them up front."

Quite right. My interpretation of this phenomenon in the last 3 cases, however, entails a quite different interpretation.

"In that case then not necessarily a delusional afterthought to simply rummage to retrieve his fee?"

No. But I have something VASTLY different in mind.

"Though this hardly counts as robbery, but still demonstrates a cool confidence, especially if he heard the Davis family stirring upstairs."

Possibly. Or else total dissociation.

"Wasting precious time mugging your victim before you murder her when you have no idea how many seconds you have is to say the least counterproductive."

Yes. One would have to be mad to do so. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But arent most muggings generally noisey anyways? Usually in my thought the person with the knife or gun raises their voice to intimidate the victim.

Absolutely, you don't mug a person underneath the windows of a house full of people.
Though I think we are being asked to imagine Tom's mugger whispering, "Psst, your money or your life!, no, I mean, Your money then your life!"

Again generally, not always, Im sure there are cases where the perp came up behind the victim and wispered to them,..."

A naive mugger might, but he won't do that a second time. Remember, Annie Chapman was not one to shy away from a punchup, these older women of the streets were very masculine!

Muggins in the city, or near a populated area generally begin with an assault. The perp will attack the victim, knocking them down or choking them temporarily then take their goods or money, and run off.
Out in the country or away from 'ears' the perp just might make a verbal threat, simply because there is little risk associated with the victim yelling their head off, no-one will hear them.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

I'll do for you!

Hello Jon.

"Annie Chapman was not one to shy away from a punchup."

I can't disagree here. After all, my chap had a circumorbital haematoma (AKA, black eye) when he was taken into custody about 3-4 days later.

Cheers.
LC