Curiosity

[Varqm]

Was the killer of Chapman going to Spitalfields Market or he was still looking for a victim at before dawn , near when the the market was filling up?

[Tom_Wescott]

Was the killer of Chapman going to Spitalfields Market or he was still looking for a victim at before dawn , near when the the market was filling up?

According to his written statement and signed confession, he was heading to market to sell meat pies and was a little light on inventory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

According to his written statement and signed confession, he was heading to market to sell meat pies and was a little light on inventory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So sad.....and just because he never thought to use some Cats Meat from the front of the house instead. Tragic really.

Cheers Tom

[Mitch Rowe]

Was the killer of Chapman going to Spitalfields Market or he was still looking for a victim at before dawn , near when the the market was filling up?

If John Richardson was Annies killer then her killer was on his way to market.
If Cadosch was her killer then the same.

If you ask me I dont believe any witnesses saw Annie or her killer and I believe Annie died no later than 4:30 AM and possibly earlier.

We have only John Richardsons statement that he did not see Annies body in the yard and he never mentioned going into the yard until the inquest. I cant trust him. Although I believe if he sat on the steps as he said he did he must have saw the body. Of course I can never be sure of that since we no longer have the diagrams created at the time so we dont really know how close Annie was to the wall of the house. It could even be that Richardson told the truth but never saw Annie laying there!

Note that Annie seems to have been a well known person and no witnesses ever came forward to say they had seen her after(I think?)2:00 AM.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mitch,

Although I believe if he sat on the steps as he said he did he must have saw the body. Of course I can never be sure of that since we no longer have the diagrams created at the time so we dont really know how close Annie was to the wall of the house.

There is no doubt that Annie's body was very close to the steps. John Davis, who discovered the corpse, saw it immediately he opened the back door - he had neither to descend the steps nor enter the yard to see her. Davis described the body as lying between the steps and the fence, and Inspector Chandler's description of the position of the body (2ft from the wall and a few inches away from the steps) tallies with that of Davis.

Note that Annie seems to have been a well known person and no witnesses ever came forward to say they had seen her after(I think?)2:00 AM.

Firstly, I don't think we're in a position to assume that Annie was a well known person beyond her immediate circle; secondly, there is no reason to believe that too many people would have been out and about after 02:00. Taking the two together, the subset of people who both knew Annie Chapman and also happened to be on the streets at that time of the morning, it's reasonable to assume, must have been practically non-existent.

[paul emmett]

We have only John Richardsons statement that he did not see Annies body in the yard and he never mentioned going into the yard until the inquest.

At the inquest, Richardson said that he had sat on the steps, but he had already said that to the TELEGRAPH on Sept. 10. Another reason that I believe R., besides the fact that he had nothing to gain, is that he says he shut the street door when he left, but when Davis found the body, the door was wide open. Someone had been there in between.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,There is no doubt that Annie's body was very close to the steps. John Davis, who discovered the corpse, saw it immediately he opened the back door - he had neither to descend the steps nor enter the yard to see her. Davis described the body as lying between the steps and the fence, and Inspector Chandler's description of the position of the body (2ft from the wall and a few inches away from the steps) tallies with that of Davis.
Firstly, I don't think we're in a position to assume that Annie was a well known person beyond her immediate circle; secondly, there is no reason to believe that too many people would have been out and about after 02:00. Taking the two together, the subset of people who both knew Annie Chapman and also happened to be on the streets at that time of the morning, it's reasonable to assume, must have been practically non-existent.

Yes..I agree that Annies body was close to the steps. But there is some abiguity on my part as to where Annies head lay. 6 inches forward as Philips describes? Or further into the space between the steps? For the record Im 99% sure that Annies body was not there at 4:30AM. Its that 1% Im always going to have to consider. The diagrams would be nice but I dont think they would change my mind much. I dont think they would anyway. Im sad that they are lost. Like others I just cant see how Richardson could have missed the body but stranger things have happened.

Annie did sell flowers occasionally. I dont how many people were out on the streets that late. Ill have to check George R. Sims account of when he walked those streets a few weeks later. If it was after midnight then I would say there were probably alot of people out.

[Mitch Rowe]

At the inquest, Richardson said that he had sat on the steps, but he had already said that to the TELEGRAPH on Sept. 10. Another reason that I believe R., besides the fact that he had nothing to gain, is that he says he shut the street door when he left, but when Davis found the body, the door was wide open. Someone had been there in between.

Thanks paul..Ill check the article. I dont think I read that one. And yes..The door is a big clue to me. If its a clue at all. It does seem as if Annie and her killer walked into the back yard after Richardson left. But I dont know how much faith I have as to Longs and Cadoschs observances. Somehow I cant believe that JTR would take time out to remove the skin flaps when he knew that everyone would be going to market soon. Of course Im assuming JTR even knew it was market day! It could be JTR was a sailor or something. Not very likely he didnt know but still I dont want to try to put myself in JTRs shoes unless the physical evidence can help.

[jason_c]

Was the killer of Chapman going to Spitalfields Market or he was still looking for a victim at before dawn , near when the the market was filling up?

I believe he had been looking for a victim during that whole night. Before he found Annie I suspect one or two prostitutes had rather a close call. I wouldnt be surprised if he'd propositioned a few prostitutes earlier. Perhaps he had been seen and had to abort his kill.

[paul emmett]

But I dont know how much faith I have as to Longs and Cadoschs observances. Somehow I cant believe that JTR would take time out to remove the skin flaps when he knew that everyone would be going to market soon.

Hi, Mitch. I go with Long because she told what she saw AND what she didn't see. No Hutchinson, she. Jack, as always, was pretty good under pressure.

Do you know the relation of the skin flaps he left to the belly wall he took? I mean, did he have to remove the former to get at the latter? Were they just different terms for different "hunks"? Was the wall higher up?

Paul

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul

Do you know the relation of the skin flaps he left to the belly wall he took?

The flaps of flesh and the hunks of belly wall were one and the same - i.e. he didn't "skin" Annie's belly first, and then cut into the subcutaneous flesh separately. He just sliced away irregularly-shaped panels of "meat" from her abdomen.

[paul emmett]

Thanks, Sam. Then there were four "panels": one over her right shoulder, two over her left, and one that he took with him, right?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Sam. Then there were four "panels": one over her right shoulder, two over her left, and one that he took with him, right?

Possibly - although the piece of the belly wall (including the navel) that he removed from the scene might not have been large enough to warrant the title of "panel", Paul. Unfortunately, we don't have any info as to the relative dimensions of the flaps of flesh that he removed.

[paul emmett]

Possibly - although the piece of the belly wall (including the navel) that he removed from the scene might not have been large enough to warrant the title of "panel", Paul. Unfortunately, we don't have any info as to the relative dimensions of the flaps of flesh that he removed.

I appreciate your help, Sam. And, of course, you're right: the piece he took could have been the smallest--or the largest, for that matter. All we do know is that he took the one with the navel.

Sam, I just read on another thread that you have an article on these mutilations, but I wasn't sure what "my Rip article" meant.

Paul