Chapman's Death

[Fisherman]

"It could have been the door."

But would not Cadoshe have seen it if that was the case (not packing case...)? The upper half of the door extended over the top of the fence.

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

Tis Phillips' TOD that confuses me a bit. But alas, there are factors that could account for him being off. Then again, it does seem strange to be that far off given the relatively short interval. . . .

Given what's known about the difficulty of estimating the time of death accurately from body temperature, even when using a thermometer to make an exact measurement of internal temperature, it wouldn't be at all surprising for Phillips's estimate to be out by an hour or more.

But remembering that he had to estimate the temperature by touch, that the body had been disembowelled and had lost a large amount of blood, that it was lying on a cold surface, that the air was cold and all the rest of it, perhaps what's surprising is that his estimate of the time of death was so close to what the witness testimony implies.

Actually Cadosch's evidence makes sense, and it annoys me I didn't see that before. He hears 'no!' and then a few minutes later hears something touch the fence. Which, as pointed out above, could be the back door swinging out and catching the fence as the killer makes his escape. Putting the killer back on the streets at around 5.30 am.

Hi Chava,

I think his statement makes sense too Chava, and although the crates notion has some legs, its not often that packing crates say "no".

All the best.

[Aristocles]

Odd. I have always taken Long seeing the pair and Albert Cadosch hearing the "no" and the thud as being ~simpatico. One needs only to adjust the time a bit

Tis Phillips' TOD that confuses me a bit. But alas, there are factors that could account for him being off. Then again, it does seem strange to be that far off given the relatively short interval. . . .

[dixon9]

i see in Dr Phillips's statement at the inquest he said alot of the body parts(which 'Jack') removed,could not be traced.Would Jack have taken these,or did they find them at a later date?

thanks for any help,as you can see i am new to this and i need all the help i can get

[Sam Flynn]

Cadosch said it sounded like a great packing case being propped against the fence.

Good point, Roy - although he doesn't specifically describe the sound in precisely that way...

Foreman of jury: "It is not unusual to hear thumps against the palings?" Cadoche: "They are packing-case makers, and now and then there is a great case goes up against the palings." (Various papers, 20th Sept 1888)

... rather, he's giving an example of the sort of noises that he'd heard coming from the yard in the past.

[Mitch Rowe]

It could have been the door. Cadosch said it sounded like a great packing case being propped against the fence.

[Chava]

Actually Cadosch's evidence makes sense, and it annoys me I didn't see that before. He hears 'no!' and then a few minutes later hears something touch the fence. Which, as pointed out above, could be the back door swinging out and catching the fence as the killer makes his escape. Putting the killer back on the streets at around 5.30 am.

[Nothing to see]

Oh OK. It was just a jokey explanation for how Richardson the shoe trimmer didn't see the body inches away from him when it should have been there and it involved a coach with the Royal Crest and a mad surgeon and poisoned grapes and a coachman who dumps the body in the garden after Richardson shuffled off to work. All very plausible of course but then I realised that, if that was the case, there would have been no blood spray on the fence. Curses, my brilliant theory is in tatters

Damn. What a pity. Would have made a good movie, or even TV mini-series. Let's think of some actors who could have appeared. U'm, Michael Caine, Christopher Plummer, Johnny Depp. You could make some money.

[Mitch Rowe]

Richardson only comes out with the cutting of the boot story at the inquest so there is some question about his credibility. There is also some question as to whether he was able to see the lock from a sitting position on the steps.

Richardson does say however, that he looked at the spot where Annie was found later that morning and he was sure he looked at that very spot while cutting the boot.

If Richardson doesnt see Annie lying there that doesnt mean Annie and JTR arent waiting to go in after Richardson leaves. He admits it was his habit as of late. They could have been hiding in the yard too.

Its probably like everyone thinks and Cadosch heard Annie fall but we will never be truly sure.

[Stephen Thomas]

in my mind I cannot see any justification for suggesting Richardson didnt see a body that was already there.

Exactly, Michael

He couldn't have missed a body a few inches from his feet.

So was he Mr Magoo or was he telling porkie-pies.

I think he saw the body and assumed it was some deadbeat sleeping.

And afterwards denied he saw anything so as not to incriminate himself.

Not me, guv'nor. I never saw a thing.

Oh OK. It was just a jokey explanation for how Richardson the shoe trimmer didn't see the body inches away from him when it should have been there and it involved a coach with the Royal Crest and a mad surgeon and poisoned grapes and a coachman who dumps the body in the garden after Richardson shuffled off to work. All very plausible of course but then I realised that, if that was the case, there would have been no blood spray on the fence. Curses, my brilliant theory is in tatters

Sadly another one crashes and burns Stephen...

On a less light note, in my mind I cannot see any justification for suggesting Richardson didnt see a body that was already there. I would have written an editorial if I was him to suggest that people who could even surmise as much were the real "blind ones."

Cheers mate

[Jon Guy]

...blood of which it might be impossible to conclusively prove that it was in any way related to the Ripper case due to lack of forensic knowledge maybe.

Hi Hellrider

The residents of 29 Hanbury St would have told the police if it had been there previously, and the spray seems to have been in line with Chapmans neck and the pooled blood.

[Hellrider]

blood...on the fence

...blood of which it might be impossible to conclusively prove that it was in any way related to the Ripper case due to lack of forensic knowledge maybe.

[Stephen Thomas]

That's a pity. I was looking forward to reading it. Still don't want to share?

Oh OK. It was just a jokey explanation for how Richardson the shoe trimmer didn't see the body inches away from him when it should have been there and it involved a coach with the Royal Crest and a mad surgeon and poisoned grapes and a coachman who dumps the body in the garden after Richardson shuffled off to work. All very plausible of course but then I realised that, if that was the case, there would have been no blood spray on the fence. Curses, my brilliant theory is in tatters