Chapman's Death

[lynn cates]

logic

Hello Archaic. This is tightly reasoned. And I think you provide ample demonstration that Annie was dead much longer than we usually imagine.

The best.
LC

[Chris]

And I think you provide ample demonstration that Annie was dead much longer than we usually imagine.

How is that, if even ordinary rigor mortis can begin within 10-15 minutes of death?

[Archaic]

Hello Archaic. This is tightly reasoned. And I think you provide ample demonstration that Annie was dead much longer than we usually imagine.

The best.
LC

Gee, thanks, Lynn.
I am not a doctor, but I occasionally play one on Casebook.

To be honest, my college Biology & Chemistry is rather rusty- hopefully not actually decomposing, but close.

best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

eh?

Hello Chris. 10 minutes? Whence that?

The best.
LC

[Chava]

She may well have been killed earlier. I'm not bowled over by the eye-witness testimony of Long. Cadosche could have heard something coming from somewhere else, although that bang against the fence is persuasive.

That having been said, unless Richardson is lying, she wasn't there when he sat on the back step and fixed his boot. There is no way he would not have seen that body. And if he is lying, why? Did he say to his mother that he would come by and check the back yard and then he didn't and wouldn't admit that? Is he JtR? No one takes him seriously as a suspect, but of course we cannot rule him out either...

The other possibility is that she was killed after 3.45 am but considerably before she was found. Maybe 4-4.30 am. What I believe happened is this: she goes off-radar around 1.30/1.45 am. No one sees her at all. She was after a bed and went off to find some business to pay for it. She was drunk. I think one serious possibility is that she couldn't find any business and put her head down wherever she could find a quiet spot--maybe even the landing at #29 Hanbury St. We know tarts had been found sleeping there before. She wakes up and goes out looking for business again. And meets the wrong trick right outside the door. This could have happened any time between 3.45 am and 5.00 am.

[lynn cates]

Richardson

Hello Chava. Regarding Richardson:

"Did he say to his mother that he would come by and check the back yard and then he didn't"

That is possible. It's also possible that he merely stood at the door and looked right, not noticing the body to the left.

Why stretch the truth? To exaggerate his importance.

The best.
LC

[Archaic]

Question re: Rigor Mortis

The onset of rigor is hastened if there has been intense physical activity shortly before death.

I was thinking about this point regarding rigor mortis, and as I understand things this phenomenon of 'hastened rigor mortis' would be the result of heightened oxygen levels during intense physical activity, which would then presumably increase the circulation & uptake of the various enzymes etc relating to cellular respiration.

(Is that correct?)

Now I'm wondering if the reverse is true, namely that the body of a deceased individual who was rather sedentary at the time of death, with poorer respiratory health, serious illness, and evident malnutrition like Annie might go into rigor mortis slightly more slowly?

- Oh dear, but then again, she's lying on the cool ground with her throat cut, fearfully disemboweled, which might cancel out all of the above...

It's a stumper.

Best regards, Archaic

[Chris]

Hello Chris. 10 minutes? Whence that?

In my post just above.

[Supe]

It might be interesting to ponder what a pair of former policemen and pre-eminent Ripperologists, Stewart P. Evans and Donald Rumbelow, said about the subject in their book Jack the Ripper: Scotland Yard Investigates.

By modern standards, therefore, the methods Dr. Phillips used in his time-of-death estimate were questionable. His conclusions are certainly not reliable enough to warrant dismissing witness evidence. Dr. Phillips took no temperatures, merely relying on touch, and did not detail the location and extent of the stiffness that was ‘commencing.’

These points may have been covered in the post-mortem report but it has not survived. Even if it had, it would merely supply more detail on how his conclusions were reached rather than improving their accuracy.

They also added: [a] strong smell is usually present with a freshly disembowelled body and Richardson would probably have noticed that too.

Moreover, had the body lain there for several hours there might have been evidence of molestation by rats, feral cats, dogs and other carnivores.

Don.

[lynn cates]

1 hour

Hello Supe. I think several hours is out of the question. But perhaps 1 hour is not.

The best.
LC

[Archaic]

Time of Sunrise?

Hi Don; those are good points.

Does anyone happen to recall what time the sun came up that day?

I'm trying to figure out how dark or light it would be at the various times proposed for Annie's death.

Thank you, Archaic

[lynn cates]

sunrise and dawn

Hello Archaic. Sunrise was at 5:23. Dawn normally begins within about 30 minutes of sunrise.

The best.
LC

[curious]

Considerable Doubt' and the Death of Annie Chapman
By Wolf Vanderlinden

Hello, All,

Here on Casebook is a wonderdul dissertation by Wolf Vanderlinden, the Associate Editor of Ripper Notes, on this very question.

I started to quote paragraphs of it, but thought it might be better just to remind everyone it's there -- located under victims, then Annie Chapman.

Everyone can then google and research rigor mortis on his/her own.

In addition, about her being drunk -- there seems to be no indication of that. There was still food in her stomach (and that's covered in the dissertation and witness testimony) but there was no fluid and no evidence she'd been consuming alcohol according to the medical examination.

The dissertation also covers a water tap and a pan of clean water in the yard, neither of which the killer used. As messy as he must have been, you have to wonder why he didn't take advantage of an opportunity to clean himself up.

Very interesting stuff here.

curious

[lynn cates]

piece

Hello Curious. That is an excellent piece. I've read it twice and it helped me get a better perspective on AC's TOD.

The best.
LC

[Chava]

That piece is interesting but even though I think it's possible she was killed earlier, I don't think it's probably. Supe's point is very well-taken. There are rats all over London, and they infested the East End then and now. They would have had a go at that body if they had had the chance.

Actually, that raises an interesting point to me. I think I'll go and start a thread in the General Victims area...