Jack the sievemaker

[DVV]

In 1886 Annie Chapman was living "with a man who made iron sieves", according to Amelia Farmer (inquest, 10 Sept). And that's the reason why Annie was sometimes known as Mrs Sievey (or Siffey, etc).
Then, from Paul Begg, we have: "This man was in fact named Jack Sivvey (sic)".
I find a little bit hard to swallow that a man "who made iron sieves" was named - and not nicknamed - "Sivvey", though I'm sure a Mr Baker can be a baker...
Does anybody know about this man's identity?

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

in 1888 people were often known by their nick name..

People didn't have birthdays as today. You have to think 1888. Not 2008.

Is there any relevance to your question?

Just interested

Yours Jeff

[DVV]

Hello my cousin from Aragon,
coumo vai, lou biais?

Thanks for your answer, I understand it. However, Begg notices that Annie went by the (nick)name of Sievey, while he precisely writes that that this man's name was, in fact, Sivvey...
That's the problem...

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

In fact, Annie was identified by Timothy Donovan from Crossingham´s as Annie Siffey. Here´s a piece on it from the papers of the day:

"Inquiries were quickly set on foot with a view to having the woman identified, and persons of both sexes were taken out of the neighbouring common lodging houses, which abound in this district, to the mortuary. One of these, Timothy Donovan, the deputy of a common lodging house, 35 Dorset street, recognised the body as that of a woman whom he knew by the name of Annie Siffey. He had seen her in the kitchen of the lodging house as late as half past one or two o'clock that morning. He knew her as an unfortunate, and that she generally frequented Stratford for a living. He asked her for her lodging money, when she said, "I have not got it. I am weak and ill, and have been in the infirmary."

Donovan told her she knew the rules, when she went out to get some money. At that time she was wearing three brass rings. Other inquiries soon established that the woman's real name was Annie Chapman, and that she was known by the nickname of "Dark Annie." She was the widow of a pensioner, and had formerly lived at Windsor. Some few years since she separated from her husband, who made her a weekly allowance of ten shillings. At his death, she had to do the best she could for a living. There were two children - a boy and a girl - of the marriage. the former, who is deformed, is, at the present time, an inmate of the Cripples' Home, while the girl is away in some institution in France. For some months past the deceased had been living in common lodging houses in Spitalfields. It is also known that formerly she lived with a sievemaker in the neighbourhood, and, on account of that, for the nickname of "Siffey."

Siffey, Sievey, Sivvey - we are obviously speaking nicknames here, just the same!

The best,

Fisherman

[DVV]

Thanks Fisherman,
so Begg should not have to tell us that Sivvey "was, in fact, the man's name".
I also wonder where the first name "Jack" comes from.
May be from a press report I did not read or forgot.

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Hi DVV!

Well, to be honest, it is stated in the Annie Chapman Timeline here on Casebook that Annie lived with a John Sivvey (people named John are often called Jack, like for example John F Kennedy), and that it is not known whether the name was a nickname or a real one. Plus there are Sivvey´s around in the world today, something you can easily see on the net.
On that same net there is also the mentioning of a contemporary expression, involving the name. It goes like this:

from CASSELL’S DICTIONARY OF SLANG by Johathon Green

"UPON MY SIVVY! exclamation (also UPON MY CIVVY/SIVEY!) [mid 19th century to 1910s]: A mild oath, on my soul! on my oath! [Standard English upon + ?asservation [[sic, should read ‘asseveration’]], keeping one’s word. Eric Partridge rejects this, opting for Standard English affidavit or soul]
__________________________

and from A DICTIONARY OF SLANG AND UNCONVENTIONAL ENGLISH by Eric Partridge

(U)PON MY SIV(V)EY or SIVVY!: On my word of honour: low: mid-19th century to early 20th century. Not asseveration, but probably davy [[‘affidavit’]], corrupted or as Baumann implies, soul.

Of course, here a sieve is not even considered when it comes to the origin of the expression. But I guess it only stands to reason, considering how much a sieve may allow to pass it by

All the best,

Fisherman

[DVV]

Thanks again Fisherman,
as usual, I enjoy your tone.

Amitiés,
David

[Celesta]

Hi David and Fisherman,

This is new to me. I always thought he was Siffey or Sivey because he was a sieve maker. Now, it might have been his actual name? What a coincidence that would be!

Best to you, guys.

Cel

[DVV]

Hello Linda,
in fact, that "Sivvey" was the actual name of this guy seems to be only the opinion of Paul Begg - and I don't know from where it comes.
Quite a dubbious coincidence, yes.

Amitiés,
David

[Celesta]

Hello Linda,
in fact, that "Sivvey" was the actual name of this guy seems to be only the opinion of Paul Begg - and I don't know from where it comes.
Quite a dubbious coincidence, yes.

Amitiés,
David

Hi David,

Yes, I agree. This is the only reference to it I've seen.

Blessings, L

[Sam Flynn]

I always thought he was Siffey or Sivey because he was a sieve maker. Now, it might have been his actual name? What a coincidence that would be!

...well, not inasmuch as it wouldn't be particularly unusual for some folk named "Smith" to be blacksmiths, or to find someone called "Cooper" who actually made barrels. When I were a lad, and for generations before then, the local chimneys were swept by a dynasty of gentlemen named "Potts"

[Celesta]

...well, not inasmuch as it wouldn't be particularly unusual for some folk named "Smith" to be blacksmiths, or to find someone called "Cooper" who actually made barrels. When I were a lad, and for generations before then, the local chimneys were swept by a dynasty of gentlemen named "Potts"

Absolutely, Sam. I wasn't sure how recent the tradition of people taking their name from their occupation was. I thought it was further back of history, but I can see it happening as you describe in the late 1800's.

[Sam Flynn]

Absolutely, Sam. I wasn't sure how recent the tradition of people taking their name from their occupation was. I thought it was further back of history, but I can see it happening as you describe in the late 1800's.

I'm not that old!

[Celesta]

I'm not that old!

Uhhhh, sorry, Sam. I put that rather awkwardly, didn't I? Comes of having the-broken-refrigerator-blues, to the tune of around $800, not to mention the cost of the spoiled food. Tends to make one's brain a little mushy!

P.S. Thanks for the chuckle.

[Byzantine]

In the British Isles, the standard use of family names for practically every member of the population was established by the 17th century. Several of the people named after a certain occupation could well practice said occupation themselves. Certain families could practice the same occupation for generations, younger members trained by senior ones and so on. Our "sieve maker" could have a number of sieve makers among his ancestors.

Anyway it would not be the only last name in Ripper lore that actually has a meaning:

*Chapman:itinerant dealer, hawker. In use since at least the 17th century. Originates from "céapmann", Old English for merchant, trader. See: http://www.bartleby.com/81/3427.html and http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Chapman-name-meaning.ashx
*Conway:"(Origin British and Celtic) Locality. From a river of that name in Wales, which issues from a lake in Merionethshire, and flows through a fertile vale of the same name, and enters the Irish Sea, at Aberconway; from Con, head, chief, and wy, a river." See: http://www.searchforancestors.com/su...n/c/conway.php
*Eddowes:"This interesting surname of English origin with variant spellings Edis, Ediss, Edhouse, Eddiss, Eddowes etc., is derived from the pet name Edus from the old English female personal name Eadyifu or Eadgyth. It may also have derived from the pet name Aldus, itself coming from the old English personal name Ealdgyth. Recordings of the personal name include Eddusa (1196), Edus (1197), "The Pipe Rolls of Worcestershire", and Edusa (1211), "The Curia Regis Rolls of Gloucestershire". The surname dates back to the late 13th Century, (see below). London church recordings include one John, son of Randolphe Edowes who was christened on September 1st 1609 at St. Andrew's, Holborn, Robert, son of Henry Eddowes, was christened on February 27th 1614 at St. James, Clerkenwell, and William Eddowes married Ann Stevens on July 15th 1654 at St. Botolph's, Bishopsgate. Mary, daughter of Jonathan and Anne Eddowes, was christened on June 19th 1698 at St. Mary Abchurch. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of John Edus, Suffolk, which was dated 1277, Ely, Cambridgeshire, during the reign of King Edward 1, "The Hammer of the Scots", 1272 - 1307. See: http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Eddowes
**Edus supposedly means "Wealthy ruling guardian. "See: http://www.mybaby-name.com/baby-name...l/edus/33745/1
**The names Eadgifu, Eadgyth and Ealdgyth are Ango-Saxon and considered ancestral forms of "Edith". "Edith is a female given name, derived from the Old English words ead, meaning 'rich or blessed', and gyð, meaning 'war', and is in common usage in this form in English, German, many Scandinavian languages and Dutch. Contractions and variations of this name include Ditte, Edie and Edythe." See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith
*Kelly: "Kelly (pronounced /ˈkɛli/) is an Irish origin given name and surname. Etymologically, it originated as a patronymic surname, with the prefix Ó ("grandchild", or "male descendant") and the suffix Ceallach ("strife", or "contention"), an Old Gaelic clan name, Ó Ceallaigh (anglicisized as "O'Kelly"). In England the name derives from Kelli in Devonshire, reflected as the Welsh/Cornish celli ("grove"), in public records dating as far back as 1194. In Scotland, from Kelly, near Arbroath, Angus, reflected as the Gaelic coille ("wood" or "grove"), in public records dating as far back as 1373.
*Nichols:Patronymic from "Nichol", itself a form of "northern Middle English personal name Nicol or its Gaelic equivalent". See: http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Nichols-name-meaning.ashx and http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Nichol-name-meaning.ashx
**The names ultimately derive from Nicholas, the Greek "Nikolaos", "a combination of the words for "victory" (nikē) and "people" (laos). The name can be understood to mean victory of the people although some say it means "power of the people" ". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas
*Smith:"The name originally derives from smitan, the Anglo-Saxon term meaning to smite or strike (as in early 17th century Biblical English: the verb "to smite" = to hit). This term led to the name of the occupation, smith or blacksmith, because such persons must continuously strike metal with a hammer in order to shape it. Metallurgy required the development of specialist skills, and was practiced throughout the world from the Bronze Age. The use of Smith as an occupational surname dates back to Anglo-Saxon times, when inherited surnames were still unknown: Ecceard Smith of County Durham was recorded in 975. Smithers may also have derived from the Celtic word "smiterin" which meant "blown to bits". This explains the common expression "blown to smithereens"." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_(surname)
*Stride: "From Middle English stride ‘(long) pace’ (from stride(n) ‘to walk with long steps’), presumably a nickname for someone with long legs or whose gait had a purposeful air, although Reaney and Wilson suggest it may also have been a topographic name for someone who lived by a crossing point over a stream, presumably no wider than a stride. They cite as an example a place known as The Strid, in North Yorkshire." See: http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Stride-name-meaning.ashx
*Walker:"In English, the name comes from the medieval profession of a ‘walker’, a person who trod on woollen cloth in a bath of Fuller's earth, and sometimes urine, in order to thicken the fibres and ready the cloth for use." Synonyms include "Fuller" and "Tucker". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_(surname) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulling