Annie's scarf

[Wickerman]

I'm talking about the presumed purpose, which was to wrap three fleshy items which could have sat easily in the open palm of a man's hand. He surely wouldn't have needed anything as large or bulky as a woollen scarf to carry them.

Ideally, wouldn't he want these wet & bloody articles to be rolled up in a cloth, if for nothing else it prevents seepage of blood through. It isn't just a case of finding something the right size, these bits of flesh need to be in something thick enough to absorb the blood.
I would, if it was me.

[Sam Flynn]

Ideally, wouldn't he want these wet & bloody articles to be rolled up in a cloth, if for nothing else it prevents seepage of blood through. It isn't just a case of finding something the right size, these bits of flesh need to be in something thick enough to absorb the blood.

I don't see that there would be much blood, indeed practically none in comparison with what the killer had already liberated and rummaged around in already - from that perspective, a scarf might be useful for scrubbing up. Conversely, it would be an extravagant piece of cloth indeed to wrap around some partially-drained organs that would fit easily enough into a handkerchief. If he'd omitted to bring a handkerchief himself, then there were other pieces of cloth about Chapman's person that he could have taken, which would have served the purpose of wrapping his trophies just as well, if not better, than an entire woollen scarf.

[Joshua Rogan]

If he'd omitted to bring a handkerchief himself, then there were other pieces of cloth about Chapman's person that he could have taken, which would have served the purpose of wrapping his trophies just as well, if not better, than an entire woollen scarf.

Didn't Donovan describe it only as a piece of black woollen scarf?

[Sam Flynn]

Didn't Donovan describe it only as a piece of black woollen scarf?

This is the reference I have, Josh, from the Daily News of 14th Sept:

Timothy Donovan, recalled, recognised the handkerchief (produced) as one the deceased used to wear. The handkerchief was a common white cotton one with a broad red border, and was very much stained. Witness said that when deceased left the house she was wearing it "three cornerwise" round her neck, and had a woollen scarf underneath it, tied in front in one knot.

No mention here of the colour of the scarf, nor of its only being a piece of a scarf. Are there any other sources that might shed light on the matter?

[Joshua Rogan]

I was thinking of the Times 14th Sept, Sam.

"Timothy Donovan, 35, Dorset-street, recalled, identified the handkerchief produced, which deceased generally wore round her throat. She bought it off another lodger at the lodging-house a week or a fortnight before she met with her death. She was wearing it when she left the lodging-house on Saturday morning and had under it a piece of black woollen scarf. It was tied in the front in one knot."

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,
I'm only going from memory here, but I believe it was Inspector Chandler who talked to the women, Inspector Reid being on leave at the time. No one wanted to own up to the responsibility of removing the clothing. The nurses from the infirmary said the were told to do so by Chandler and Chandler denied this was the case.



It is a little confusing but all this happened after the body was at the workhouse shed. It is my understanding that all the clothing had been removed and the body washed before Phillips got there around 2 p m. He had been waiting for the coroner's authorization to proceed with a post-mortem and finding the body disturbed like that really set him off. It is partly his fault however, because he should have accompanied the body to the ' mortuary' himself and had it secured as it was in his charge. Notice he did do this with McKenzie.

Hi Cris,
Bless you for answering me
I have been checking back through the newspapers and although I couldn't find the article I remembered, The Scotsman did have a piece with similar wording:

"Police Srgeant Vanner said he removed the body to the mortuary on the police ambulance
Q Are you sure you took every portion of the body with you?
A- Yes sir. I placed the body in the mortuary shed. I left it on the stretcher of the ambulance. Two females from 35 Dorset Street came to identify the body. Sergeant Thicke touched the clothing, and the women described it for me to write down. I did not see Sergeant Thicke touch the body."
The Scotsman 14 September 1888

I don't know why I said Reid in my question. I meant Thick.

Obviously the questions were asked to determine if any portion of the body could have been lost en route to the shed but it does give the impression that some sort of inventory or description of the clothing was taken at the time. In the version I think I read I am almost certain that Thick or another policeman was supposed to have asked the women to describe the clothing for him as they would do a better job of it.

That's what I thought might be the case with Phillips. Again, according to the Scotsman, the Coroner was annoyed with Mann for stating that the neckerchief he found in the corner of the shed with other clothing had come specifically from Annie Chapman's throat, when Mann wasn't there when the clothes were removed to know that for sure. In the Scotsman version, Phillips then says he has two witnesses who saw her wearing the neckerchief (in life) and Donovan backs that up that it is the same one.
Did Phillips see the neckerchief tied around Annie Chapman's neck before her body was taken to the shed then?

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Cris,
Bless you for answering me
I have been checking back through the newspapers and although I couldn't find the article I remembered, The Scotsman did have a piece with similar wording:

"Police Srgeant Vanner said he removed the body to the mortuary on the police ambulance
Q Are you sure you took every portion of the body with you?
A- Yes sir. I placed the body in the mortuary shed. I left it on the stretcher of the ambulance. Two females from 35 Dorset Street came to identify the body. Sergeant Thicke touched the clothing, and the women described it for me to write down. I did not see Sergeant Thicke touch the body."
The Scotsman 14 September 1888

Obviously the questions were asked to determine if any portion of the body could have been lost en route to the shed but it does give the impression that some sort of inventory or description of the clothing was taken at the time. In the version I think I read I am almost certain that Reid or another policeman was supposed to have asked the women to describe the clothing for him as they would do a better job of it.

That's what I thought might be the case with Phillips. Again, according to the Scotsman, the Coroner was annoyed with Mann for stating that the neckerchief he found in the corner of the shed with other clothing had come specifically from Annie Chapman's throat, when Mann wasn't there when the clothes were removed to know that for sure. In the Scotsman version, Phillips then says he has two witnesses who saw her wearing the neckerchief (in life) and Donovan backs that up that it is the same one.
Did Phillips see the neckerchief tied around Annie Chapman's neck before her body was taken to the shed then?

Poor old Sgt Badham must be the most misspelled man in the Met!

He was probably involved in more ripper cases than any other officer and was with Inspector Reid when he listed the clothing for Alice McKenzie, rather than Chapman. Could that be why you're thinking of Reid?

I believe Phillips does comment on the kerchief around Annie's neck at the scene, I think, saying it didn't look like it had been disturbed, nor tied on after the killing. This seemingly in response to earlier comments about it.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Times (misspelling his name yet again) has Badham saying;

"Sergeant Edmund Barry, 31H, stated that on Saturday last he conveyed the body of the deceased from 29, Hanbury-street, to the Whitechapel mortuary on the police ambulance. Detective-Sergeant Thicke examined the body and gave out a description of it to witness. In doing this that sergeant moved the clothing about. Two females from 35, Dorset-street, were also present, and described the clothing to witness. They did not touch the clothing or the body. Inspector Chandler then came."

[Debra A]

The Times (misspelling his name yet again) has Badham saying;

"Sergeant Edmund Barry, 31H, stated that on Saturday last he conveyed the body of the deceased from 29, Hanbury-street, to the Whitechapel mortuary on the police ambulance. Detective-Sergeant Thicke examined the body and gave out a description of it to witness. In doing this that sergeant moved the clothing about. Two females from 35, Dorset-street, were also present, and described the clothing to witness. They did not touch the clothing or the body. Inspector Chandler then came."

I found the original one I mentioned in Morning Post of 14th September 1888. It says similar to the Times and Scotsman but with the added quote from Thick:

..Sergeant Thick touched the clothing, but I did not see him touch the body, He remarked to the women "You understand females' clothing best and you can describe it. "

[Debra A]

Poor old Sgt Badham must be the most misspelled man in the Met!

He was probably involved in more ripper cases than any other officer and was with Inspector Reid when he listed the clothing for Alice McKenzie, rather than Chapman. Could that be why you're thinking of Reid?

I believe Phillips does comment on the kerchief around Annie's neck at the scene, I think, saying it didn't look like it had been disturbed, nor tied on after the killing. This seemingly in response to earlier comments about it.

The papers didn't fare much better spelling Mann's surname either.

I just got Reid stuck in my mind and read Reid for Thick several times...my brain does that sometimes.

Okay thanks, I'll look for that. I have long forgotten the finer details of the individual murders.

[Sam Flynn]

I was thinking of the Times 14th Sept, Sam.

"Timothy Donovan, 35, Dorset-street, recalled, identified the handkerchief produced, which deceased generally wore round her throat. She bought it off another lodger at the lodging-house a week or a fortnight before she met with her death. She was wearing it when she left the lodging-house on Saturday morning and had under it a piece of black woollen scarf. It was tied in the front in one knot."

How big is a "piece of scarf", and - if it's only a piece - how does one tie it? Or was Donovan referring to the handkerchief being tied?

Curse these sparse and confusing sources!

[Hunter]

Debs,

Regarding your question as to whether Phillips saw the neckerchief around the victim's neck in situ, this is his testimony as given by the Sept. 14th issue of the Morning Advertizer (which gives more word-for- word testimony than most:
" The handkerchief produced was tied loosely round the deceased's neck. It did not seem to have been disturbed when the throat was cut, and I do not think it was placed round the neck after the murder was committed."

This indicates that Phillips did see it around her neck at the scene and probably explains why he was irate about it being removed before he could examine the wound in more detail at the post-mortem. Having it like the killer left it would have been essential to him as he later described Stride's wound in relation to her neckerchief. Phillips believed evidence had been destroyed by incompetence as well as the dreadful conditions he had in conducting his examination.

Pardon me if this has been mentioned earlier in this thread as I have not read all of it.

[Joshua Rogan]

How big is a "piece of scarf", and - if it's only a piece - how does one tie it? Or was Donovan referring to the handkerchief being tied?

Curse these sparse and confusing sources!

Mmm, is a piece of scarf bigger or smaller than a piece of apron?
Presumably it was still long enough to wrap round her neck, but probably not of Dr Who dimensions. I think Donovan is referring to the kerchief being knotted, but it could be either the way the reports are worded.

I wonder if perhaps the piece of gauze found near the body by Dr Phillips could possibly be the scarf? I know gauze and wool can be very different, but men - especially policemen as Debs' post points out - aren't necessarily the best at describing women's clothing. I seem to recall one paper correcting the police description of Stride's jacket collar.

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder if perhaps the piece of gauze found near the body by Dr Phillips could possibly be the scarf? I know gauze and wool can be very different, but men - especially policemen as Debs' post points out - aren't necessarily the best at describing women's clothing. I seem to recall one paper correcting the police description of Stride's jacket collar.

You may be on to something there, Josh. And it's not just the police and medical men we need to worry about. Donovan himself seems to have been particularly sensitive to the minutiae of what Annie might have worn.

[Joshua Rogan]

You may be on to something there, Josh. And it's not just the police and medical men we need to worry about. Donovan himself seems to have been particularly sensitive to the minutiae of what Annie might have worn.

Or maybe not.... Just checked, and it wasn't gauze that Phillips found in the yard, but "a small piece of coarse muslin". Bur how small is small?

As for Donovan, he did say that Chapman had recently bought the kerchief from another lodger, so that's why it may have stuck in his mind.
Or, maybe he spent a lot of time thinking about her throat.