Two knives, two people?

[TheCuriousCat]

You needn't fret Curious, to imagine what its like in someones shoes isn't too difficult for me, and seeing other perspectives does help when you are studying these kinds of acts. For your comfort, Im not a soldier, only know one friend of mine who has a son that is, so this exercise is trying to put someone elses morality, ethics, compassion, into the equation.

...

I think its a huge mistake imaging that you can try and figure out what seem to be acts of madness with just your own sensibilities...unless of course you are someone like you described. I can imagine quite well, but proving my concepts validity is another thing.

I am comforted to know it is an act of imagination, as opposed to memory.

I get what you mean when you say that people tend to apply their own sensibility to acts like this. People wind up making bizarre statements like...I dunno... "I can't imagine a homicidal maniac would carry two knives!" Or, "Why would the murderer drop th apron by the graffiti if he didn't write it!" As if butchering prostitutes and laying their entrails on the street is perfectly understandable and logical thing to do otherwise.

[Abby Normal]

How about if you add a soldier that I fought with and defended.. with my life, as he did with me... when in battle. Hell yes, that's why I said what I said, you obviously aren't aware of how deep many soldiers bonds go. Its merciful ending the suffering of someone who Im sure looked like they may be dying, and its the loyalty that would make him help his comrade. He may not have liked doing it...but that's not the point.

uh-no. the normal reaction would be WTF?!? are you doing?? and skidaddle out of there.

[Abby Normal]

He wanted to cut out their abdominal organs, so what else could he realistically do?

lift their skirts-like he did with Tabram. and it shows a desire to expose that part of the body the ripper was interested in.

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan.
Why would they pressure her in that line of questioning?
She said that they were in the company of two soldiers, but they were never traced.
Regards Richard.

True. To me, she seemed all rather melodramatic and more of an attention seeker, rather than anything else. I think that there is a good chance that she made everything up and probably was not with Martha on the night in question.

From another perspective if this was a bust up between friends would they have stabbed them in the privates area? Of course it's possible but to me this always suggested a sexual element to the crime and at least in a small was a link to MT being a victim of JtR.

Tristan

[richardnunweek]

Hi Tristan.
Why would they pressure her in that line of questioning?
She said that they were in the company of two soldiers, but they were never traced.
Regards Richard.

[Losmandris]

Hi Sam,
Back in my youth , I went out for a drinking session , with a mate, and for no apparent reason he turned on me, and beat the daylights out of me, he was sincerely sorry afterwards very remorseful. so it can happen.
As for Poll having a knife on her, she may have carried a clasp knife for protection,
The longer blade might not have been used at all.
All speculation, but stranger things have happened.
Regards Richard.

If this had been the case, surely the police would have got it out of her?

Tristan

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sam,
Back in my youth , I went out for a drinking session , with a mate, and for no apparent reason he turned on me, and beat the daylights out of me, he was sincerely sorry afterwards very remorseful. so it can happen.
As for Poll having a knife on her, she may have carried a clasp knife for protection,
The longer blade might not have been used at all.
All speculation, but stranger things have happened.
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

We first need to find a reason for Poll to accompany Martha to a shady landing in Wentworth Dwellings, and then we need to explain why she'd be carrying two vicious knives. We also need a motive for her to turn homicidal on someone who, to all appearances, was a friend and drinking-buddy. None of this seems very likely to me.

Hi Gareth

They both may have taken shelter there, because of the disturbances in George Street that night/ morning.

[Michael W Richards]

Please tell me you don't live in Canada (and you no longer have access to weapons) because your admission that you would commit murder if one of your friends was doing it is truly frightening. Like...should I be alerting the authorities here?

You needn't fret Curious, to imagine what its like in someones shoes isn't too difficult for me, and seeing other perspectives does help when you are studying these kinds of acts. For your comfort, Im not a soldier, only know one friend of mine who has a son that is, so this exercise is trying to put someone elses morality, ethics, compassion, into the equation. What I describe is not uncommon, the specific scenario I applied it to takes it to an extreme, sure, but Im also sure that basic behavior still exists within high stress situations. The bond between men in these kinds of roles is tangible, and in some cases Im sure supersedes their relationship with their family. And to address where these bonds may have formed, Ill suggest the tribal wars in India mid-19th century, where many British soldiers got their first taste of madness. And where the weapons most often seen in action were those of large, bladed, instruments.

I think its a huge mistake imaging that you can try and figure out what seem to be acts of madness with just your own sensibilities...unless of course you are someone like you described. I can imagine quite well, but proving my concepts validity is another thing.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi.
Is it not possible that in the case of Martha. she was stabbed in a frenzy by Pearly Poll in a fit of temper, it has hallmarks of a outburst killing.
Regards Richard.

We first need to find a reason for Poll to accompany Martha to a shady landing in Wentworth Dwellings, and then we need to explain why she'd be carrying two vicious knives. We also need a motive for her to turn homicidal on someone who, to all appearances, was a friend and drinking-buddy. None of this seems very likely to me.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Is it not possible that in the case of Martha. she was stabbed in a frenzy by Pearly Poll in a fit of temper, it has hallmarks of a outburst killing.
Regards Richard.

[TheCuriousCat]

How about if you add a soldier that I fought with and defended.. with my life, as he did with me... when in battle. Hell yes, that's why I said what I said, you obviously aren't aware of how deep many soldiers bonds go. Its merciful ending the suffering of someone who Im sure looked like they may be dying, and its the loyalty that would make him help his comrade. He may not have liked doing it...but that's not the point.

Please tell me you don't live in Canada (and you no longer have access to weapons) because your admission that you would commit murder if one of your friends was doing it is truly frightening. Like...should I be alerting the authorities here?

[Michael W Richards]

The trouble is Michael this wasn't the Somme or war torn Europe in 1944. I understand what you are saying that some soldiers may have covered for a friend if they thought a war crime had been committed against the enemy. But this was a poor defenceless woman just out to make a couple of pence for a bed for the night in peacetime London. What you are suggesting is akin to why Anderson came in for such criticism in his biography about certain Jews covering the crime of murder for another Jew. Because murder on Martha is what it was and the other soldier using his bayonet to finish a defenceless woman off is an accomplice in murder, much worse than covering up suspicions or giving them an alibi.
Regards Darryl

I think the context is what makes this plausible Darryl. It was a soldiers weapon that delivered a single final blow. The victim may have bled to death from the injuries she already had, but who can be sure? No point in continuing to stab her with a pen knife...that boat had sailed, so, if she survives my mate almost certainly spends the rest of his life in jail. Maybe me too, as a perceived accomplice. How is a self serving yet merciful murder beyond comprehension here?

[Darryl Kenyon]

How about if you add a soldier that I fought with and defended.. with my life, as he did with me... when in battle. Hell yes, that's why I said what I said, you obviously aren't aware of how deep many soldiers bonds go. Its merciful ending the suffering of someone who Im sure looked like they may be dying, and its the loyalty that would make him help his comrade. He may not have liked doing it...but that's not the point.

The trouble is Michael this wasn't the Somme or war torn Europe in 1944. I understand what you are saying that some soldiers may have covered for a friend if they thought a war crime had been committed against the enemy. But this was a poor defenceless woman just out to make a couple of pence for a bed for the night in peacetime London. What you are suggesting is akin to why Anderson came in for such criticism in his biography about certain Jews covering the crime of murder for another Jew. Because murder on Martha is what it was and the other soldier using his bayonet to finish a defenceless woman off is an accomplice in murder, much worse than covering up suspicions or giving them an alibi.
Regards Darryl

[Michael W Richards]

Errata made a good argument that it might not have been two knives, but the angle of the final blow might have given the false impression of a second murder weapon. Wish I could find it.

I have many knives in my collection, modern and antique, and no pen knife Ive ever seen can make a wound that resembles a bayonet stab.