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Would Tumblety Have Assumed That He Was Being Followed?

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  • Would Tumblety Have Assumed That He Was Being Followed?

    I know that there are arguments on both sides of the question as to whether Tumblety would have been out on bail in time to kill Mary Kelly (and let's not go there again with this thread). Let's assume for the sake of argument that he was. Let's also assume that he was questioned simply with respect to the gross indecency charges and that allegations that he was the Ripper were merely hinted at.

    I would have to think that he would have had to have been extremely stupid and extremely naive to think that he was simply being questioned with regard to the gross indecency charges. So the questions is this -- wouldn't it have been a reasonable assumption on his part to assume that upon his being let out that he would have been followed?

    c.d.

  • #2
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    I know that there are arguments on both sides of the question as to whether Tumblety would have been out on bail in time to kill Mary Kelly (and let's not go there again with this thread). Let's assume for the sake of argument that he was. Let's also assume that he was questioned simply with respect to the gross indecency charges and that allegations that he was the Ripper were merely hinted at.

    I would have to think that he would have had to have been extremely stupid and extremely naive to think that he was simply being questioned with regard to the gross indecency charges. So the questions is this -- wouldn't it have been a reasonable assumption on his part to assume that upon his being let out that he would have been followed?

    c.d.
    An excellent assumption, and having regard to the fact that by reason of his charges and the dates of the offences, he would have known that they may have already had him under surveillance.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Comment


    • #3
      Trevor,

      You should read my threads better. He was not under surveillance before his initial arrest on suspicion. The names of his 4 young men came from letters in his pocket during his arrest on suspicion.

      Tumblety being a narcissist would have also been paranoid, so I agree he would have believed he'd be followed. Just as Tumblety easily hid from the police in New York when he arrived after his absconding, he would have easily sneaked away from the police. The police had his address, though.

      Mike
      The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
      http://www.michaelLhawley.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
        Trevor,

        You should read my threads better. He was not under surveillance before his initial arrest on suspicion. The names of his 4 young men came from letters in his pocket during his arrest on suspicion.

        Tumblety being a narcissist would have also been paranoid, so I agree he would have believed he'd be followed. Just as Tumblety easily hid from the police in New York when he arrived after his absconding, he would have easily sneaked away from the police. The police had his address, though.

        Mike
        So those letters also contained the dates of the offences did they ? would you care you care to publish them.

        How do you explain his arrest on warrant for those offences then? The letters would not have been obtained until after his arrest and to an effect an arrest the police would have had to disclose their evidence to a magistrate for him to issue the warrant.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          If you read Simon woods excellent book" deconstructing jack "it becomes very obvious that Tumblety was only a cover for the police to travel overseas to investigate other matters.
          Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

          Comment


          • #6
            I feel like a snake oil salesman doesn't survive his first few years (and certainly not working the Civil War) without knowing when to run. Because nothing he does means anything unless he gets away. He could have an incredibly prosperous year long run somewhere, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't read the signs that the tide is about to turn. He was always in danger of arrest or hanging. And he was alive in 1888 because he respected those dangers, and believed in them.

            Whatever else was going on in his life, I gotta think that he would have been keenly aware of the trouble he was in, or could be in. It's how he got as far as he did. He had to know. The man was never strung up by angry customers. He had to have some skills.
            The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by pinkmoon View Post
              If you read Simon woods excellent book" deconstructing jack "it becomes very obvious that Tumblety was only a cover for the police to travel overseas to investigate other matters.
              Pinkmoon, that's because you got sucked into Simon's spin on cherry-picked evidence. If I see more people have been sucked into this, maybe my next task will be a review based upon all the facts. ...and try not to sabotage the thread.
              Last edited by mklhawley; 08-23-2015, 06:16 AM.
              The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
              http://www.michaelLhawley.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                So those letters also contained the dates of the offences did they ? would you care you care to publish them.


                How do you explain his arrest on warrant for those offences then? The letters would not have been obtained until after his arrest and to an effect an arrest the police would have had to disclose their evidence to a magistrate for him to issue the warrant.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                Why would I want to explain an arrest on warrant when he was clearly arrested without a warrant ON SUSPICION?

                Evening Post, Feb 16, 1889:

                "A WHITECHAPEL SUSPECT.
                "Sketch and Life of the Gifted, Eccentric, and World-famed, Dr. Tumblety."
                The New York World devotes considerable space to a notice of an autobiography just published in America by Dr. Francis Tumblety, who was arrested in London on suspicion in connection with the Whitechapel murders, but who was released immediately it was found there was no evidence to incriminate him. The World is probably not aware that Dr. Tumblety was afterwards taken into custody on another charge, arising out of certain correspondence with young men which was found in his possession, that he was committed for trial at the Old Bailey, and that on the day fixed for the trial he failed to appear to his bail."
                Attached Images


                These letters were either found ON his possession or IN his possession at his residence. Either way, he was first arrested on suspicion.

                Notice how the British reporter stated 'the World is probably not aware of this', which clearly means the letters found in his possession was a fact discovered by the British reporter.

                Sorry Trevor; these are the facts.

                Mike
                The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Errata View Post
                  I feel like a snake oil salesman doesn't survive his first few years (and certainly not working the Civil War) without knowing when to run. Because nothing he does means anything unless he gets away. He could have an incredibly prosperous year long run somewhere, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't read the signs that the tide is about to turn. He was always in danger of arrest or hanging. And he was alive in 1888 because he respected those dangers, and believed in them.

                  Whatever else was going on in his life, I gotta think that he would have been keenly aware of the trouble he was in, or could be in. It's how he got as far as he did. He had to know. The man was never strung up by angry customers. He had to have some skills.
                  Hi Errata,

                  If you're talking about after absconding, one location Tumblety always visited in the 1880s was Toronto. He was in Toronto in early 1888, when he told a Toronto reporter that he had kidney and heart disease and was in fear of sudden death. He never did visit Canada again. Why? He knew if he stepped foot in Canada he could have been extradited back to England on the gross indecency and indecent assault charges. Tumblety never left US soil after 1888. He was still very ubiquitous, but just in the US. Interestingly, we see him getting progressively worse.

                  When the post-Kelly murders occurred - murders Scotland Yard believed to be at the hands of Jack the Ripper - Tumblety was in the US, so to them, this meant Tumblety must not have been the killer. He fell off their radar.

                  Sincerely,
                  Mike
                  The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                  http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hello Mike,

                    Are you sure that T. could have been extradited back to England for the gross indecency charges? Not arguing otherwise but they seem relatively minor.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                      Hello Mike,

                      Are you sure that T. could have been extradited back to England for the gross indecency charges? Not arguing otherwise but they seem relatively minor.

                      c.d.
                      Hi c.d., Yes it was the Dominion of Canada in 1888; although sovereign, they were still part of the British Empire. The Head of the Dominion Police, Sherwood, had an intimate relationship with Scotland Yard. Wolf V. has an excellent explanation somewhere on the boards.
                      Mike
                      The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                      http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So are you saying that any charge could have been an extraditable offense?

                        c.d.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                          Why would I want to explain an arrest on warrant when he was clearly arrested without a warrant ON SUSPICION?

                          Evening Post, Feb 16, 1889:

                          "A WHITECHAPEL SUSPECT.
                          "Sketch and Life of the Gifted, Eccentric, and World-famed, Dr. Tumblety."
                          The New York World devotes considerable space to a notice of an autobiography just published in America by Dr. Francis Tumblety, who was arrested in London on suspicion in connection with the Whitechapel murders, but who was released immediately it was found there was no evidence to incriminate him. The World is probably not aware that Dr. Tumblety was afterwards taken into custody on another charge, arising out of certain correspondence with young men which was found in his possession, that he was committed for trial at the Old Bailey, and that on the day fixed for the trial he failed to appear to his bail."
                          Attached Images


                          These letters were either found ON his possession or IN his possession at his residence. Either way, he was first arrested on suspicion.

                          Notice how the British reporter stated 'the World is probably not aware of this', which clearly means the letters found in his possession was a fact discovered by the British reporter.

                          Sorry Trevor; these are the facts.

                          Mike
                          On suspicion of what ?

                          "The world is not aware of this " because it never happened

                          These are secondary facts, from secondary sources. i.e newspaper articles, and look at the date Feb 1889 almost 3 months after the event long after he had returned to The US

                          Even if it did happen, how would the police have been able to put together enough evidence to be able to charge him, and take him to court the following day? Just by having in their possession a number of letters which the writers may not even gave been able to be traced or identified.

                          In order for them to have been of evidential value they would have to have contained explicit details of gross indecency committed by Tumblety, along with the dates of the offences, and would need to have contained the writers name and address. Now 4 potential victims all providing all of those seems hard to accept.

                          And the final nail in your futile attempt to keep Tumblety as a viable suspect is the fact that again even if he had been arrested as you suggest. He could not have been arrested for the gross indecency offences without a warrant, and so we get back to what I said earlier the police would have to have had sufficient evidence to go to a magistrates and ask for an arrest warrant, and if that had have been granted would have to have had their evidence in plave before they could charge him. With just a few letters that would not have been possible.

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                            On suspicion of what ?

                            "The world is not aware of this " because it never happened

                            These are secondary facts, from secondary sources. i.e newspaper articles, and look at the date Feb 1889 almost 3 months after the event long after he had returned to The US
                            Supported by no less than three Scotland Yard officials confirming Tumblety was a Ripper suspect. Assistant Commissioner Anderson requested from US chiefs of police information on Ripper suspect Tumblety AFTER the Kelly murder. Chief Inspector Littlechild stated he was 'amongst the suspects', and did so decades later, recalling in amazing detail the events of Tumblety's arrest and absconding. Inspector Andrews stated to the Canadian press in December 1888 that they were STILL interested in interviewing Tumblety on the Ripper case AFTER absconding. Who cares how you would classify this evidence, it's corroboration. Sorry Trevor.

                            Even if it did happen, how would the police have been able to put together enough evidence to be able to charge him, and take him to court the following day? Just by having in their possession a number of letters which the writers may not even gave been able to be traced or identified.
                            Once they quickly realized that he was a type of doctor with a bitter hatred of women in his Scotland Yard dossier - "a fact on record" - They would have moved mountains to stay within the requirements of an arrest without a warrant. Sorry Trevor.


                            And the final nail in your futile attempt to keep Tumblety as a viable suspect is the fact that again even if he had been arrested as you suggest. He could not have been arrested for the gross indecency offences without a warrant, and so we get back to what I said earlier the police would have to have had sufficient evidence to go to a magistrates and ask for an arrest warrant, and if that had have been granted would have to have had their evidence in plave before they could charge him. With just a few letters that would not have been possible.
                            This is how:

                            Evening Post, Feb 16, 1889:

                            "A WHITECHAPEL SUSPECT.
                            "Sketch and Life of the Gifted, Eccentric, and World-famed, Dr. Tumblety."
                            The New York World devotes considerable space to a notice of an autobiography just published in America by Dr. Francis Tumblety, who was arrested in London on suspicion in connection with the Whitechapel murders, but who was released immediately it was found there was no evidence to incriminate him. The World is probably not aware that Dr. Tumblety was afterwards taken into custody on another charge, arising out of certain correspondence with young men which was found in his possession, that he was committed for trial at the Old Bailey, and that on the day fixed for the trial he failed to appear to his bail."
                            Attached Images


                            Sorry Trevor; it fits the facts, but your claim doesn't.
                            The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                            http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                              Supported by no less than three Scotland Yard officials confirming Tumblety was a Ripper suspect. Assistant Commissioner Anderson requested from US chiefs of police information on Ripper suspect Tumblety AFTER the Kelly murder. Chief Inspector Littlechild stated he was 'amongst the suspects', and did so decades later, recalling in amazing detail the events of Tumblety's arrest and absconding. Inspector Andrews stated to the Canadian press in December 1888 that they were STILL interested in interviewing Tumblety on the Ripper case AFTER absconding. Who cares how you would classify this evidence, it's corroboration. Sorry Trevor.



                              Once they quickly realized that he was a type of doctor with a bitter hatred of women in his Scotland Yard dossier - "a fact on record" - They would have moved mountains to stay within the requirements of an arrest without a warrant. Sorry Trevor.



                              This is how:

                              Evening Post, Feb 16, 1889:

                              "A WHITECHAPEL SUSPECT.
                              "Sketch and Life of the Gifted, Eccentric, and World-famed, Dr. Tumblety."
                              The New York World devotes considerable space to a notice of an autobiography just published in America by Dr. Francis Tumblety, who was arrested in London on suspicion in connection with the Whitechapel murders, but who was released immediately it was found there was no evidence to incriminate him. The World is probably not aware that Dr. Tumblety was afterwards taken into custody on another charge, arising out of certain correspondence with young men which was found in his possession, that he was committed for trial at the Old Bailey, and that on the day fixed for the trial he failed to appear to his bail."
                              Attached Images


                              Sorry Trevor; it fits the facts, but your claim doesn't.
                              If he was taken into custody that means he was arrested, and for that to happen in the absence of him being found committing and offence of gross indecency they had no option that to go with the legal requirements and that was to obtain a warrant for his arrest, and to do that they had to produce to the magistrate evidence to justify an arrest, and then if they had sufficient to do that they would have needed sufficient to then charge him with the offences for him to be remanded in custody.

                              Did all of that happen overnight, or was it a case that he was only ever arrested on a warrant for gross indecency, with the police having their case nailed down before his arrest, and ready to charge and remand after arrest?

                              And where is there evidence to corroborate that statement that he had a hatred of women, that's another myth created by the Tumblety`ites over the years.

                              Take a tip from me don't believe all you read in newspapers, they clearly distorted the facts back then, and the press are still doing so today.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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