Cracking The Calendar Code

[Chris]

Of course, bail may have been increased, but why would that be?

In the nature of things we can't know exactly why it would have been in Tumblety's case, but we know it often was increased at committal.

[David Orsam]

As I said, bail could have been increased, but that seems unlikely to me as he would already have been out on bail for a week, so could offer that as evidence that he had no intention to flee.

Or the police evidence during the week could have been firmed up, with new charges added. Originally, for example, Tumblety might have been charged only with gross indecency offences but, after the four men named in the indictment had been interviewed by police, and agreed to give evidence for the prosecution, indecent assault charges were added, prompting an increased bail. Or the police might have become suspicious that Tumblety was preparing to flee and asked the magistrate to increase the bail to a much higher level. I could come up with more possibilities but there's no real point speculating. The only thing we need to know is that there was nothing odd or unusual about increased bail at committal (regardless of the fact that the prisoner had not fled while at liberty on bail).

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

But might that not suggest that the police could have hinted to the magistrate that murder charges could be added to the indictment after further investigations, thus resulting in the denial of bail? But when more serious (felony) charges were not added at committal bail was granted?

Hi John, This was a time when Scotland Yard did not know the history of FT in Canada and the US, thus, did not believe he was a flight risk. They had no evidence on anyone in the Ripper case, including FT. Just as Greaves stated, they wanted to find a way to hold this guy, just in case he turns out to be JTR. If he's in jail and the murders stop, they just might have gotten their man. Their plan was not to add murder charges on this case... If we accept what the evidence is telling us.

Mike

[Hercule Poirot]

Hi John, This was a time when Scotland Yard did not know the history of FT in Canada and the US, thus, did not believe he was a flight risk. They had no evidence on anyone in the Ripper case, including FT. Just as Greaves stated, they wanted to find a way to hold this guy, just in case he turns out to be JTR. If he's in jail and the murders stop, they just might have gotten their man. Their plan was not to add murder charges on this case... If we accept what the evidence is telling us.

Mike

I'm not to sure Scotland Yard wasn't aware of Tumblety's past particularly when he lived in Canada. They had a rather important file on him which we ignore the contents. But there were a couple of aspects in his past which deserved much attention from SY. It's pure speculation but let me resume them.

When he lived in Montreal, he was arrested on "23 September 1857 on the charge of attempting to induce a miscarriage"(1). We must remember that this was only 2 years after the beginning of Dynamite Campaign initiated by the Fenians and the Irish Republican Brotherhood.

Two newspapers, the Montreal Gazette and La Mineme, reported that "Tumblety had received a numerously signed requisition to run in the Irish interest for the city in the provincial election of 1857-58" against Thomas D'Arcy McGee who won the election(2). He decided to refuse the offer for unknown reasons probably preferring making more money as a quack and preserving his 'dark side' but seemed to have had a good chance to win against McGee.

His defense lawyers were Bernard Devlin and Lewis Thomas Drummond who had close ties with the Irish radicals in Canada. "Bernard Devlin as a young man had been denied the right to practice medicine by the medical board at Quebec. He was the stormy petrel of the Montreal Irish community, and closely associated with its most radical and violent elements. In this character, he played a part in securing for Thomas D'Arcy McGee (added: one of Canada's father of the confederation!) the ex-rebel of 1848 (Young Irelander Rebellion of 1848), the support of the Irish voters and in arranging his alliance with the anglo-rouges in the election of 1857-58.29 McGee won the election. L. T. Drummond's participation in the case also suggests a political association. Drummond was an important figure in Lower Canadian politics, and the fall of 1857 and the beginning of 1858 marked a major shift in his career. As the organizer of the Irish vote in Montreal, he had helped to construct LaFontaine's Liberal party in the 1840s. In May of 1856, he resigned from his position as Attorney-General for Canada East in the Liberal-Conservative administration"(3).

Now back then, Lower-Canada was a British Colony and the administrators had very close ties with the London metropolis. Constant reports were sent to London resuming the main political events. I assume every important figure having relations with the local Irish radicals (and Tumblety was obviously one of them for the reasons mentioned above) could have been identified in these reports.

Was he a 'risk'? I can't say. But I feel he was under close observation by the British authorities regardless of his sexual orientation.
1. Dr. Tumblety, the Indian Herb Doctor, Montreal Pilot, 23 and 24 September 1857.
2. Montreal Gazette, 5 December 1857; and Montreal La Minerve, 5 decembre 1857.
3. Dr. Tumblety, the Indian Herb Doctor.

[mklhawley]

Hi Hercule Poirot,

They certainly had a large file on him, but the file pertained to his exploits in England since the early 1870s, and Wm Pinkerton informed a few of them about Tumblety's US/Canadian history a few years prior to the murders. That being stated, they didn't know him enough to realize he was always a flight risk. Even though he was a weird character, he had money, excellent legal counsel, and they treated him as such.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Mayerling]

I'm not to sure Scotland Yard wasn't aware of Tumblety's past particularly when he lived in Canada. They had a rather important file on him which we ignore the contents. But there were a couple of aspects in his past which deserved much attention from SY. It's pure speculation but let me resume them.

When he lived in Montreal, he was arrested on "23 September 1857 on the charge of attempting to induce a miscarriage"(1). We must remember that this was only 2 years after the beginning of Dynamite Campaign initiated by the Fenians and the Irish Republican Brotherhood.

Two newspapers, the Montreal Gazette and La Mineme, reported that "Tumblety had received a numerously signed requisition to run in the Irish interest for the city in the provincial election of 1857-58" against Thomas D'Arcy McGee who won the election(2). He decided to refuse the offer for unknown reasons probably preferring making more money as a quack and preserving his 'dark side' but seemed to have had a good chance to win against McGee.

His defense lawyers were Bernard Devlin and Lewis Thomas Drummond who had close ties with the Irish radicals in Canada. "Bernard Devlin as a young man had been denied the right to practice medicine by the medical board at Quebec. He was the stormy petrel of the Montreal Irish community, and closely associated with its most radical and violent elements. In this character, he played a part in securing for Thomas D'Arcy McGee (added: one of Canada's father of the confederation!) the ex-rebel of 1848 (Young Irelander Rebellion of 1848), the support of the Irish voters and in arranging his alliance with the anglo-rouges in the election of 1857-58.29 McGee won the election. L. T. Drummond's participation in the case also suggests a political association. Drummond was an important figure in Lower Canadian politics, and the fall of 1857 and the beginning of 1858 marked a major shift in his career. As the organizer of the Irish vote in Montreal, he had helped to construct LaFontaine's Liberal party in the 1840s. In May of 1856, he resigned from his position as Attorney-General for Canada East in the Liberal-Conservative administration"(3).

Now back then, Lower-Canada was a British Colony and the administrators had very close ties with the London metropolis. Constant reports were sent to London resuming the main political events. I assume every important figure having relations with the local Irish radicals (and Tumblety was obviously one of them for the reasons mentioned above) could have been identified in these reports.

Was he a 'risk'? I can't say. But I feel he was under close observation by the British authorities regardless of his sexual orientation.
1. Dr. Tumblety, the Indian Herb Doctor, Montreal Pilot, 23 and 24 September 1857.
2. Montreal Gazette, 5 December 1857; and Montreal La Minerve, 5 decembre 1857.
3. Dr. Tumblety, the Indian Herb Doctor.

Hi Hercule Poirot,

I don't know where this leaves Bernard Devlin, but Thomas D'Arcy M'Gee has one melancholy achievement of sorts. He was the only important government official in 19th Century Canada who was assassinated (in April 1868) by Patrick Whelan, a Fenian (M'Gee had spoken out against the Fenians who had been trying to invade Canada from the U.S in 1866 and 1867). If Devlin was close to both the Fenians and M'Gee he would have been treading a very fine line indeed.

Jeff

[Hercule Poirot]

Hi Hercule Poirot,

They certainly had a large file on him, but the file pertained to his exploits in England since the early 1870s, and Wm Pinkerton informed a few of them about Tumblety's US/Canadian history a few years prior to the murders. That being stated, they didn't know him enough to realize he was always a flight risk. Even though he was a weird character, he had money, excellent legal counsel, and they treated him as such.

Sincerely,

Mike

I believe there's no direct evidence supporting that. Hence, with all due respect, you can only assume they didn't know him enough the same way I assume they did.

[mklhawley]

Direct evidence the Scotland Yard had a large file on Tumblety? The Littlechild Letter.

Direct evidence William Pinkerton discussed the history of Tumblety with Scotland Yard in the 1870s? William Pinkerton's public interview with the Chicago Inter Ocean reporter, November 20, 1888.

Direct evidence they didn't know enough about him to be a flight risk? How does not having 'direct' evidence weigh our assumptions equally? Of course I don't have his dossier, but the fact that they asked Pinkerton about this American doctor means they certianly didn't investigate his US and Canadian history extensively prior to their meeting. If, you say these 1857 Canadian newspaper reports demonstrate Scotland Yard's big interest in Tumblety, the problem is Pinkerton's interview with them is two decades later.

There is more.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Hercule Poirot]

Hi Hercule Poirot,

I don't know where this leaves Bernard Devlin, but Thomas D'Arcy M'Gee has one melancholy achievement of sorts. He was the only important government official in 19th Century Canada who was assassinated (in April 1868) by Patrick Whelan, a Fenian (M'Gee had spoken out against the Fenians who had been trying to invade Canada from the U.S in 1866 and 1867). If Devlin was close to both the Fenians and M'Gee he would have been treading a very fine line indeed.

Jeff

Devlin supported McGee in the 1857 election but soon found out that he was more or less a turncoat, McGee considering the Fenian to be a "pack of fools" and a "Punch-and-Judy Jacobins". In the 1867 election, Devlin fought against him and lost only by 197 votes.

The Fenian denied being behind the murder of D'Arcy M'Gee.They said of him he was "At one time, one of the foremost friends of Ireland at another her bitterest foe". His ambition led him to change his position regarding the Irish question. As for Whelan, the evidence against him was strictly circumstantial and to this day still considered to have been very weak. Let us remember that John A. Macdonald, Prime Minister of Canada, unconcerned with the constitutional separation of powers, sat beside the presiding judge, Chief Justice William Buell Richards!!!

But all this could be the subject of another topic and feel uncomfortable in having made unrelated comments. So let's not move away from the current topic.

[Hercule Poirot]

Direct evidence the Scotland Yard had a large file on Tumblety? The Littlechild Letter.
...Of course I don't have his dossier, but the fact that they asked Pinkerton about this American doctor means they certianly didn't investigate his US and Canadian history extensively prior to their meeting. If, you say these 1857 Canadian newspaper reports demonstrate Scotland Yard's big interest in Tumblety, the problem is Pinkerton's interview with them is two decades later.

There is more.

Sincerely,

Mike

Maybe I misread the Chicago Inter Ocean article but it doesn't refer to the British authorities not knowing Tumblety's activities in Canada. Pinkerton's remarks show he knew the man quite well but were made to the reporter and not to UK authorities. In any case, we can not conclude with this article only that, as you say, "they certainly didn't investigate his US and Canadian history". Maybe they didn't, again maybe they did. Relations between the British Empire and it's colonies went way beyond commerce during the Victorian era which makes me believe they had a pretty good idea of what was going on in the Province of Canada.

Sorry for moving away from the topic.

Cheers,
Hercule

[mklhawley]

Very true, Hercule.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Amanda]

I'm surprised that there's absolutely nothing about Tumblety in the Pinkerton Agency's files...
He certainly seems a difficult chap to find documents on. Except for newspaper reports, there's little concrete evidence of his whereabouts.
Makes him a very interesting person to investigate.
Amanda

[Hercule Poirot]

Very true, Hercule.

Sincerely,
Mike

I humbly think that the only thing I might be true with is that both scenarios are plausible, yours and mine. LOL

[Hercule Poirot]

I'm surprised that there's absolutely nothing about Tumblety in the Pinkerton Agency's files...
He certainly seems a difficult chap to find documents on. Except for newspaper reports, there's little concrete evidence of his whereabouts.
Makes him a very interesting person to investigate.
Amanda

It's not that the Pinkerton Agency didn't know anything about Tumblety, the article mklhawley gave us indicates they knew quite a lot. But they were probably more concerned back then with domestic issues such as Jesse James, the Dalton Brothers and Butch Cassidy. They were into serious newspaper clipping, information and mug shots filing. Some cases had external links with other countries but unless asked for and under contract, they would keep quite.

Cheers,
Hercule

[mklhawley]

Hi Amanda,

Maybe if we want to discuss the Pinkertons more, post on the Pinkerton/Tumblety thread. Quickly; Assistant Commissioner Anderson's requests from US Chiefs of Police for information on Ripper suspect Tumblety should explain why the Pinkertons weren't directly involved. Scotland Yard was never chasing Tumblety; only gaining info in hopes of finding something - just as they did with Dr. Thomas Neill Cream and Inspector Jarvis.

Sincerely,
Mike