Is this new Tumblety info?

[David Orsam]

OK David I will have a go. Either the family still retain the papers (or 'playing cards' or whatever) or they were given to a repository or they were simply lost/thrown away. I hope it's not the latter.

Excellent! Very best of luck. Such an attitude has inspired me to rummage through my own papers and dig out a copy of Muir's will which may or may not assist. Below are the bits which include names:

"I appoint my wife Dame Mary Beatrice Muir, my brother-in-law William Hamilton Leycester, my daughter-in-law Vera Brodie Muir and my Son-in-law Robert William Godfry Kiesow (hereinafter called my Trustees) to be the executors and trustees of this will........trust to pay the income thereof to my three sisters Eliza Graham Muir, Isobel Bennet Muir and Octavia Burleigh Muir and to my neice Annie Burleigh Muir....one third of the income thereof to Vera Brodie Muir the widow of my son Captain Burleigh Leycester Muir during her life....to pay the same to my grandson Graeme Leycester Muir....to my daughter Mary Leycester Kiesow..."

[David Orsam]

A couple more things.

Muir's will bequeathed to his wife "all my wines provisions and household stores and all my furniture pictures books silver wearing apparel jewellery motors carriages horses live and dead stock and all other articles of household domestic or personal use or ornament belonging to me absolutely."

So I guess she owned his papers but they are not specifically mentioned.

I now realise I was more diligent than I thought because I also obtained a copy of Lady Muir's will (she having died in May 1933). There's no mention of her late husband's papers and she leaves "all articles of household or personal use" to her daughter, Mary Leycester Kiesow.

Other beneficiaries (of money) in the will are:

"my sister Kate Marshall....my sister-in-law Francis Eliza Leycester...Lynda Jane Farrar (?) of 270 Rosemary Road West [whoever she was]...each of my grandchildren Graeme Leycester Muir, Carman Muir Kiesow and Juliet Muir Kiesow".

Again, good luck!

[Mayerling]

Excellent! Very best of luck. Such an attitude has inspired me to rummage through my own papers and dig out a copy of Muir's will which may or may not assist. Below are the bits which include names:

"I appoint one third of the income thereof to Vera Brodie Muir the widow of my son Captain Burleigh Leycester Muir during her life....to pay the same to my grandson Graeme Leycester Muir....to my daughter Mary Leycester Kiesow..."

I was right - Muir's son was an Army Captain who was killed in the Great War.

Jeff

[Robert]

Thanks David. I'm sure I read somewhere that Lady Muir provided the papers. She seems to have had a hand in editing the book, anyway.

Graeme had a career in entertainment :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611357/

The British Library claims to have some barristers' papers, but I couldn't see Muir in the catalogue.

Jeff, yes, Captain Muir died of influenza and pneumonia in a casualty clearing station, a week before the armistice.

[mklhawley]

Forgive me, since reading the Evans & Gainey book many years ago, I haven't followed Tumblety developments at all, apart from having read the recent threads in this forum, so I don't know if what I have discovered today is new information or already known about, but I couldn't find anything through a Google search so I'll set out what I have - with my best attempt at transcribing the handwritten text - at the risk of it being old hat.

The below two entries are from CRIM 6/17 at the National Archives which is a Central Criminal Court Book covering the period 1 April 1887 to 31 March 1891.

FIRST ENTRY

"Tuesday morning 20th November 1888 Before Sir Thos. Chambers 2 C Recorder and Alderman Tyler.

Regina
v
Francis Tumblety

Committed for offences under Criminal Law Amendment Act
Upon application of Mr Bodkin for defence & after hearing Mr Muir for prosecution the case is adjourned till next Session all recognizances being respited."

[The letter "M." is written in pencil next to Tumblety's name]

SECOND ENTRY (under entries for 10 December 1888)

"Estreat the Recoyce of Francis Tumblety and his bail for non appearance here to answer an indictment for misdemeanour

Thomas Chambers."

I'm sorry, David, I just saw this. Excellent find! Tumblety received the same bail as others at the time for Gross Indecency from Hannay, so he likely did not consider him a flight risk. I believe Jeff nailed it about the tough prosecutor. Tumblety knew they had nothing on him with respect to the Ripper murders, but the Gross Indecency charge was going to stick.

Sincerely,

Mike

[David Orsam]

Thanks Mike!

[David Orsam]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Lady Muir provided the papers.

Hi Robert - that is certainly possible if not probable but Felstead himself doesn't specifically say this. The "papers" are only mentioned on the book's title page (and the book is indeed said to have been edited by Lady Muir as you say). I might add that I asked at the National Archives in case they could tell me where the papers were deposited but they couldn't say and suggested I contact Muir's former chambers but knowing how small and cramped all chambers are, and that they never keep paperwork, not having the storage space, I didn't bother.

[Mayerling]

Thanks David. I'm sure I read somewhere that Lady Muir provided the papers. She seems to have had a hand in editing the book, anyway.

Graeme had a career in entertainment :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0611357/

The British Library claims to have some barristers' papers, but I couldn't see Muir in the catalogue.

Jeff, yes, Captain Muir died of influenza and pneumonia in a casualty clearing station, a week before the armistice.

Thanks Robert. Muir's loss is like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's loss of his oldest son Kingsley, who also was wounded but died from an illness while convalescing.

Jeff