Was Tumblety in the civil war?

[Batman]

Was he actually in the civil war? Did he just not fight and pretend to be a war surgeon or was there any truth to that claim at all?

[Batman]

The reason why I am asking is because of MJK's right lower leg. I don't believe the speculation that it's a stocking. There is none on the other leg and it doesn't have any of the torn clothing you can see elsewhere.



I think it's a prepation incision that he has decided is not worth continuing because he is at the wrong side of the bed. However he either forgot or didn't have time to go back to it and make it less medical looking. Remember, he performed a double mastectomy on Kelly with circular incisions.

Years back I saw some medical books from the 1800s on amputations. Stuff like this...

http://www.civilwarmedicalbooks.com/civil_war_amputation.html

American Civil War amputation illustrations.

In a way maybe a quack owning a book like this and then trying it out is what we are seeing plus overkill from the type of psychopathology a lust killer has.

[Amanda]

Tumblety...

Hi,
According to the Washington Evening Star (November 18th, 1890) Tumblety was arrested and faced the Police court on a charge of being a 'Suspicious person'.

At the hearing (quote):

'Stable Keeper Keliher gave evidence as to the defendant's character. He said that he knew the doctor during the war, and during the Battle of Bull Run he (the doctor) was very active in helping the sick and the wounded. Witness had always known the doctor as a good citizen.
Saloon Keeper Harvey also gave evidence as to the doctor's good character during the war'.

Amanda

[Batman]

Thanks.

Some of the civil war medical books have items on facial surgery/nose/mouth part amputations too.

Found the leg one that reminded me...

[Batman]

Look at fig.4 on the top right. Notice the flap? The reason for this flap is that if you create flaps during an amputation you can stich them together by folding them in covering the wound.



Imagine you are preparing to amputate the leg from above the knee down and make a flap. Now instead of removing the lower part of the leg, JtR removes the part that wasn't to be amputated (above the knee, stripping the upper thigh). What shape would you be left with on the leg you didn't remove if the cut was done with a flap? I say, exactly what you see on Mary Kelly.

[jmenges]

Going from memory as I don't bring my Ripper books to work...

Tumblety himself has written that he applied for a surgical position with the Army but was refused based on some health condition he was suffering from at the time. So, it is speculated, that if Tumblety was in some capacity a doctor in the Union Army it most likely would have been under McClellan's staff and as a homeopathic doctor only, as McClellan was known to have employed them in an unofficial capacity. Please be aware that many of the press reports that mention T as a surgical doctor during the Civil War have not been verified, and in some cases, have been shown to be untrustworthy. For further reading about Tumblety's possible activities during the Civil War period, look no further than Tim Riordan's book Prince of Quacks.

All the best

JM

[Batman]

That's a good name for a book about him.

I always thought 55 was a bit too old for the ripper, but the new photo of him c. 1875 would make him 42, but he looks early to mid 30s there. Basically he looks younger than his age.

Which brings me to my next point. I never really believed Hutches witness testimony of the person he saw, until you read it again in the light of knowing about Tumblety.

I always thought he was not considered involved in the Kelly murder because he was in custody or something at the time, but isn't the modern view that there are two dates, one before Mary Kelly and one after? Like isn't it possible he was arrested before and then after again but they had no evidence so sent Littlechild after him to see if he would carry on in America?

[mklhawley]

Going from memory as I don't bring my Ripper books to work...

Tumblety himself has written that he applied for a surgical position with the Army but was refused based on some health condition he was suffering from at the time. So, it is speculated, that if Tumblety was in some capacity a doctor in the Union Army it most likely would have been under McClellan's staff and as a homeopathic doctor only, as McClellan was known to have employed them in an unofficial capacity. Please be aware that many of the press reports that mention T as a surgical doctor during the Civil War have not been verified, and in some cases, have been shown to be untrustworthy. For further reading about Tumblety's possible activities during the Civil War period, look no further than Tim Riordan's book Prince of Quacks.

All the best

JM

Hello everyone,

Regardless of Tumblety's claims, he attempted to get into McClellan's inner circle by offering his services as a surgeon for the purpose of promoting his Indian Herb Doctor business in Washington. At the time, there was allopathic medicine promoted by the surgical community, homeopathic medicine (maximize one's own immune system), and herbal medicine (botanical solution). Tumblety was an Indian herb doctor (plus pushed the French, sexual disease remedies), although he signed his name, 'MD'.

Also at the time, surgeons gained credibility two ways, their license and their anatomical specimens. Since Tumblety had no license, he certain would have had incentive to show anatomical specimens to the General's officers in order to convince them he's the real deal. Of course it didn't work.


Tumblety would not have had surgical expertise, at all, but he would have had anatomical knowledge.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Batman]

I wonder though if for entry exams he had to do surgery and show some know-how?

The question I should ask is if Tumblety had enough taught to him to remove a kidney and a heart.

[mklhawley]

I wonder though if for entry exams he had to do surgery and show some know-how?

The question I should ask is if Tumblety had enough taught to him to remove a kidney and a heart.

Hi Batman,

Tumblety kept offices as an Indian Herb Doctor open in Baltimore and New York in the fall of 1861, at the same time he was 'offering his services' to the General in Washington. The September 1861 advertisement that Tumblety put out in Baltimore claimed he, himself, would be available only at a certain time frame. He also opened up an office in Washington! Tumblety would never have followed an army around. He'd lose too much money.

Did he train enough on surgery to convince the General and his officers? The evidence just doesn't support this. As I stated earlier, his method of convincing the officers to allow him in the inner circle of Washington DC when the General was in charge was owning anatomical specimens.

Did Tumblety have enough anatomical knowledge to eviscerate in a crude fashion? Absolutely. I don't think anyone believes JTR eviscerated with surgical precision.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Note the following article in the St.Thomas Weekly Dispatch dated March 20, 1862,

DR. TUMBLETY IN TROUBLE AGAIN

Dr. Tumblety, who has been cutting large figures about Washington for the past six or eight months, and who was reported at one time to holding the position of Senior Surgeon on the staff of General McClellan — an idea that was probably created by the superb air of distinguished importance that the fellow knows how to wear —has come to grief, it appears, and is having his
pretentious.

I have numerous New York and Baltimore advertisements stating Tumblety will be in the office at the same time he haunted Washington. Lots of travel time on the train, but that's what this traveling herb doctor did.

Note how the reporter claimed something slightly differently than what Tumblety published in his autobiographies. Instead of merely offering his services, here it states he did indeed hold a position as a 'senior surgeon', and we know this is completely false. The reporter also suggested that this was not true, 'created by the superb air of distinguished importance.' Tumblety charges at least a dollar, which meant his target patrons were the financially well-to-do. It worked, at least in the short term, until we was run out of town.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Batman]

Did Tumblety have enough anatomical knowledge to eviscerate in a crude fashion? Absolutely. I don't think anyone believes JTR eviscerated with surgical precision.

I think that JtR had more than just anatomical knowledge. Having read and watched surgeons on the topic of JtR victim Kidney removal and Heart removal I think nobody can just do a smash and grab like that by feeling around with some idea where organs are.

I believe his chosen position of getting them horizontal on the ground to move to their right side was because this was the position he would have taken as a student with whoever is training him.

So I have looked at the Kelly victim photograph a few times and noted that her right leg indicates 2 points of surgical precision.

1. The amputation flap reversed.
2. The circular incision in preparation for amputation.
3. JtR used circular incisions for breast removal.

[Robert]

Hi Batman

I'm sure that if one of the victims had swallowed a coin, Tumblety could have found and removed it with lightning speed and precision.

I just don't see him having the discipline to pass a serious medical course.

Your argument about the surgical skill is interesting. You are saying that the skill needed fell somewhere between that of an animal slaughterer and that of a surgeon, if I understand you correctly.

[Batman]

Hi Batman

I'm sure that if one of the victims had swallowed a coin, Tumblety could have found and removed it with lightning speed and precision.

I just don't see him having the discipline to pass a serious medical course.

Your argument about the surgical skill is interesting. You are saying that the skill needed fell somewhere between that of an animal slaughterer and that of a surgeon, if I understand you correctly.

I don't believe JtR displays knowledge of having passed a serious medical course. If you want to do kidney extraction, its done from the rear with the person on their side. If you want to do a heart extraction, you open the chest cavity. So JtRs organ removal is not a medical technique. However in the dark and considering time constraints the removal of a kidney was done due to experience knowing where to find one and where to cut it. The heart of MJK was removed from below with the knife being used to cut the top of it from inside the ribage. JtR prefers to be on the right side of the victim. In the case of MJK he was forced to the left side because of the partition against the bed. The fact he didn't move her suggests to me that he didn't actually spend a long time there at all.

In the case of MJK I believe what I am seeing is amputation technique on the lower and upper right leg. The remainder is not technique or skill but butchery by a deranged mind.

My speculation would be that the murderer attended tutorials on anatomy that involved extractions/amputations with him standing on the right side of the demonstration watching the tutor show people what to do. I believe he has seen kidney extractions. Limb amputations. Double mastectomies. Hysterectomies. I believe he also had experience with people in advanced stages of syphilus. What's interesting is these procedures can be done and people can still live (they are supposed too). So you don't need a cadaver, just a patient.

I think watching would be sufficient to know what to do. Assisting would be a bonus. Under what conditions he learned this way, I don't know. It could be anything from a university to knowing someone and visiting them at their profession. The easiest explaination would be a begineer student who hasn't gone too far.

So animal slaughter would be too much on a lower part of the scale. Medical student/assistant seems more likely. If he did have surgical skill, then he is masking it with the overkill. I am 99% sure he is using a medical amputation knife. I would love to know what model Rumbelow has. I know it's a longshot, but if you accept the Lusk letter, he said he would send the knife. It's an American model that can be traced a bit, I would love to know if it would shine more or less light on Tumblety?

[Robert]

Hi Batman

Re the knife, I posted you a link on the thread where you asked before (can't remember the name of the thread now). It was made by Weiss.