Question about Tumblety's origins

[mklhawley]

Link here to request by me for info about Tumblety's possible origins in Cavan, Ireland.
It started out as a simple letter to readers of the Anglo-Celt but one staff journalist decided to morph it into a feature story (with inaccuracies). In fairness to the local journo, he figured out where "Inniskillen Falls" is in Ireland. Tumblety mentioned it in one of his autobiographies.
Yes, indeed, "Inniskillen Falls" are in Cavan and not Co. Fermanagh...
In the 18-19th centuries they claimed to do cures for all sorts of ailments (a bit like Lourdes) - anything to get the American tourists to come to Ireland!
Will let you know if anything credible comes back from Anglo-Celt readers. Cavan genealogy have come up with nothing as already got on to them. I did get a few lengthy emails already - from people on Casebook who prefer other suspects to Tumblety....Typical that! didn't realise the Anglo-Celt newspaper was so widely read.
http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/inthepa...avan/#comments

Hi Siobhan,

How cool is this! By the way, my article in Rip 116 called Tumblety and the Elixir of Life goes into Tumblety trips brought on by his ill health, such as Hot Springs. His health began to deteriorate after the Civil War and it looks like he was certainly looking for an Irish cure of his ailments (something his herbal medicines certainly failed to fix). It also lends credence to young Martin McGarry's claim.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Livia]

You may find these documents of historical interest to your
timeline:

[Livia]

One more:



Line 121

[Mayerling]

Has anyone, in studying Tumblety's arrest in the wake of Lincoln's Assassination found any link of the Doctor with one Captain John Celeste, or Joao Celestino, a Portuguese ship captain in Washington, D.C. in April 1865, who was also arrested at the time as an intimate co-conspirator of Booth and John Surratt? An article on "The Unknown Conspirator" was published in 1957 in American Heritage Magazine, written by Phillip Van Doren Stern, and was subsequently discussed in Theodore Roscoe's 1959 work, "Web of Conspiracy". As they are now the only two co-conspirators who we know were arrested, but were not tried in the June 1865 case, perhaps there was some connection between them regarding the kidnapping plot or the assassination plot.

Jeff

[DRoy]

Mayerling,

Not that i'm aware of. However, I thought it has been established Tumblety had nothing to do with it? It would be quite a task to put Tumblety involved in the assassination especially after it's been shown at least up to this point he had nothing to do with it. Even if he was, does that make him any more of a suspect? Today, courts wouldn't stand for that circumstantial evidence as proof enough.

No matter how much Tumblety supporters use him, there is nothing there concrete that makes him anything more than someone named as a more possible suspect.

He may have hated immigrants, and/or women but nothing to support

[mklhawley]

Mayerling,

Not that i'm aware of. However, I thought it has been established Tumblety had nothing to do with it? It would be quite a task to put Tumblety involved in the assassination especially after it's been shown at least up to this point he had nothing to do with it. Even if he was, does that make him any more of a suspect? Today, courts wouldn't stand for that circumstantial evidence as proof enough.

No matter how much Tumblety supporters use him, there is nothing there concrete that makes him anything more than someone named as a more possible suspect.

He may have hated immigrants, and/or women but nothing to support

DRoy,

There is nothing concrete on any suspect. Are you trying to say this should be a standard to minimalize him? He is the only suspect Assistant Commissioner Anderson was recorded to name as a Ripper suspect at the peak of the murders, not to the press, but to US Chiefs of Police. Anderson would not have gotten personally involved if they did not take him seriously. The only reason why he stopped considering him a suspect is because Tumblety was in New York City during the post-Kelly murders.

Jeff,

I do not recall anything connecting the two.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Livia,
Thanks a lot for posting those documents.
I got some feedback on Tumblety request in Anglo-Celt from someone who has sent me screen shots from ancestry.com claiming Tumblety was from Dublin.
Will post them if they are relevant when I get a chance. Not looked at 'em yet!
Thanks to all.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,

How cool is this! By the way, my article in Rip 116 called Tumblety and the Elixir of Life goes into Tumblety trips brought on by his ill health, such as Hot Springs. His health began to deteriorate after the Civil War and it looks like he was certainly looking for an Irish cure of his ailments (something his herbal medicines certainly failed to fix). It also lends credence to young Martin McGarry's claim.

Sincerely,

Mike

Congratulations on your article Mike.
You must be the most distinguished expert on T at this stage!

[mklhawley]

Thanks Siobhan. Far from it, but I have researched enough to see glaring misconceptions still fester in the minds of experts.


By the way, some day my plan is to visit the Cave of the Cats. My celtic ancestry mandates a pilgrimage to Hell's gate. Put it on your calendar!

Mike

[Livia]

You're welcome, Siobahn.

I hesitated to post this, as it's a bit removed from
James and Margaret (Conelly) Timblety, but here's
a death certificate which states that the Timblety's
daughter Margaret was born in Dublin.



Sary Ann Amos is the grandaughter of James and Margaret (Conelly) Tumblety.

It's a long shot, but you might order some of the ten or eleven
death certificates from the children of James and Margaret
and it might list the birth place of their parents. Tumblety's
doesn't, but he died in St Louis MO far from home and most
likely alone.



It appears as if most of Francis' siblings died in NY. It takes about
4-6 weeks to acquire a death certificate from NY and the cost is
about $18, at least it was 2 years ago. This might be useful as a
last resort.

Good luck

Liv

[Mayerling]

DRoy,

There is nothing concrete on any suspect. Are you trying to say this should be a standard to minimalize him? He is the only suspect Assistant Commissioner Anderson was recorded to name as a Ripper suspect at the peak of the murders, not to the press, but to US Chiefs of Police. Anderson would not have gotten personally involved if they did not take him seriously. The only reason why he stopped considering him a suspect is because Tumblety was in New York City during the post-Kelly murders.

Jeff,

I do not recall anything connecting the two.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi DRoy and Mike,

As a person who is interested in the Lincoln Assassination problems as well as the Whitechapel Murders, Doc Tumblety's unique position (suspect in both cases!) fascinates me. The Doc may have eventually proved he was not cogniscent of Booth's plots, but some newspapers suggested a connection between Doc and Davy Herold. In any event, in the round-up of suspects after April 15th, 1865, Stanton really went beserk. Members of the cast of "Our American Cousin" were suspected (Booth was an actor - why did he choose that play?). As it turned out one of the stage hands, Edman Spangler, was charged as a co-conspirator, and sentenced to Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas with Dr. Mudd, Samuel Arnold, and Michael O'Laughlin.
So however scattershot the approach, Stanton did zero in on people whom there was some evidence against. As the only other serious candidate as a co-conspirator (before Dr. Tumblety got the Whitechapel limelight as well), Captain Celestine/ Celestino was the only one whom anything was really written about. Hence my question.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

[QUOTE=Livia;

It appears as if most of Francis' siblings died in NY. It takes about
4-6 weeks to acquire a death certificate from NY and the cost is
about $18, at least it was 2 years ago. This might be useful as a
last resort.

Good luck

Liv[/QUOTE]

I had to get my mother's death certificate about two years back, and one problem is that you have to put down that you are a relative of the party you seek the information about. Of course, you might lie, but I'm not sure how it would work out.

Jeff

[mklhawley]

Hi DRoy and Mike,

As a person who is interested in the Lincoln Assassination problems as well as the Whitechapel Murders, Doc Tumblety's unique position (suspect in both cases!) fascinates me. The Doc may have eventually proved he was not cogniscent of Booth's plots, but some newspapers suggested a connection between Doc and Davy Herold. In any event, in the round-up of suspects after April 15th, 1865, Stanton really went beserk. Members of the cast of "Our American Cousin" were suspected (Booth was an actor - why did he choose that play?). As it turned out one of the stage hands, Edman Spangler, was charged as a co-conspirator, and sentenced to Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas with Dr. Mudd, Samuel Arnold, and Michael O'Laughlin.
So however scattershot the approach, Stanton did zero in on people whom there was some evidence against. As the only other serious candidate as a co-conspirator (before Dr. Tumblety got the Whitechapel limelight as well), Captain Celestine/ Celestino was the only one whom anything was really written about. Hence my question.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

A perfect question for you. There've been multiple occasions Tumblety has been connected to a theatre or theatrical plays. This should probably be for another thread, but I wonder if Herold was in employ of Dr T when Herold was introduced to Booth. What do you think?

Mike

[Livia]

I had to get my mother's death certificate about two years back, and one problem is that you have to put down that you are a relative of the party you seek the information about. Of course, you might lie, but I'm not sure how it would work out.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

This is true in the case of a recent death, but for a
death that happened either in the 19th or early 20th
century, genealogy/research is an accepted reason
for most city/state governments.

I did some research on Cora (Mersinger) Crippen aka
Belle Elmore and obtained her mother's death certificate
(died 1904), to settle the Smith/Wolf issue that arose
over MSU's contested DNA results. Although I was in
contact with her descendants, I am not related to them
in any way and had no difficulty obtaining the certificate.

Liv

[Livia]

Hi Jeff,

A perfect question for you. There've been multiple occasions Tumblety has been connected to a theatre or theatrical plays. This should probably be for another thread, but I wonder if Herold was in employ of Dr T when Herold was introduced to Booth. What do you think?

Mike

As it happens, I've nearly finished re-reading Gore Vidal's
Lincoln. He has David Herold working in Thompson's Drug Store,
located just a few blocks from the White House. He also
has Herold moonlighting as a scene-shifter and general dog's
body in Ford's and another local theater. Herold, as a delivery
boy for Thompson's, has free rein to travel over the city bridge
to deliver medications, and under this cover, also acts as a
courier delivering messages to a Confederate sympathizer/
tavernkeeper in Alexandria. Herold is also a family friend of
the Surratts, a Maryland family known to Booth. Vidal has them
meeting for drinks in Willard's Hotel.

How much of this is true and how much artistic license, I don't
know.

Liv