Question about Tumblety's origins

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi folks,
Anyone out there have a clue where Tumblety clan might have lived in Ireland before getting that Famine ship to the USA.
OR would anyone have any leads I could follow up to get a location.
Records of imigrants arriving in New York were not kept in the 1840s - in fact, they didn't start keeping such records until the 1890s.
I'm writing a story on the famine ship journey on the Ashburton (which the Tumblety clan travelled on) but it would be great to go even further back to his life in Ireland (but where) before emigration.
He did say once that he was born "near Dublin" but that's not much help. As he was a compulsive liar, it might also be wrong.
Anyone?
I've already tried the obvious places, Irish archives, newspapers, birth/marriage records etc.
THANKS

[mklhawley]

Hi folks,
Anyone out there have a clue where Tumblety clan might have lived in Ireland before getting that Famine ship to the USA.
OR would anyone have any leads I could follow up to get a location.
Records of imigrants arriving in New York were not kept in the 1840s - in fact, they didn't start keeping such records until the 1890s.
I'm writing a story on the famine ship journey on the Ashburton (which the Tumblety clan travelled on) but it would be great to go even further back to his life in Ireland (but where) before emigration.
He did say once that he was born "near Dublin" but that's not much help. As he was a compulsive liar, it might also be wrong.
Anyone?
I've already tried the obvious places, Irish archives, newspapers, birth/marriage records etc.
THANKS

Hi Siobhan,

According to Bill Amos, the 1844 Rochester, NY, directory had Francis' eldest brother, Lawrence, in it with his last name as 'Tumeulty', just like the inscription on the family memorial at the Holy Sepulchre cemetary. Other spellings were used throughout the decades, but....

I visited the family plot and the memorial is made of granite, a rock type not from Rochester. It's grain size matches that of the granite material in California, especially Yosemite. The prevailing thought is that when Francis died in 1903, this memorial was put up, but they incorrectly spelled the last name. I just don't see the surviving family members spending this much, especially when they were not buried in this plot.

What if, when mom died in 1873 or one of Francis' siblings (such as in 1898), Francis himself bought the plot and granite memorial (he was the wealthy one)? If so, Francis would have known full well what his historical family spelling was, so 'Tumuelty' just might have been how they spelled their name in Ireland.

Have you researched Tumuelty?

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Just to be clear (after my typos); 'Tumuelty' and not 'Tumeulty'

Sincerely,

Mike

[Bridewell]

Tumuelty

I've just had a quick look on Ancestry. Can't find any Tumuelty's but there are a number of Tumalty's (no Francis) born in Meath and Cavan in the mid 19th century. Stewart Evans will know, if anyone does.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Rochester Directory 1874—



Rochester Directory 1879—



Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

More confusion.

Rochester Directory 1871—



Rochester Street Map [date uncertain], Mary Tumuelty's name changes to Tumblety—



Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

Hi all,


Per Bill Amos:

For the times there is good documentation on Margaret. She, Francis, his sister Ann and a James (not the father) arrived at the Port of New York on June 21, 1847 on the Ashburton from Great Britain. With the help of the Federal Census and Rochester city directories a decent profile emerges of her decliniing years. She was apparently dependant on her eldest son Lawrence and in her last 5 years her eldest daughter Alice Tumblety Fitzsimons.



Here is a profile of Margaret from the time she arrived in the United States until she died. Spelling and names are as they appearded in the documents.


1788 Born in Ireland



1847 21 Jun Margt Tumbleton Arrival Date: Estimated Birth Year: abt 1795 Age: 52 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Liverpool, England Ship Name: Ashburton Search Ship Database: Search the Ashburton in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database Port of Arrival: New York, New York Line: 12 Microfilm Serial: M237 Microfilm Roll: M237_67 List Number: 411

1850 census Margaret Tumathy Age: 62 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1788 Birth Place: Ireland Gender: Female Home in 1850(City,County,State): Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York Household Members: Name Age Ann Tumathy 22 Francis Tumathy 19 Lawrence Tumathy 29 Margaret Tumathy 62


1851 Rochester City Directory (RCD) Tumilty, Margaret Mrs. Widow b. S. Sophia, n. Flint


1859 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret h. Plymouth Av.


!860 census Margarett Tumbite Age: 71; estimated birth year: abt 1789; birth place Ireland; home in 1860 Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York; gender female; Houshold Members: Lawrence Tumbite 40; Margarett Tumbite 71; Robert W. Wilkens 50; William Hayden 37; Mary Hayden 37; Bridget Hayden 17;


1861 (RCD) Tumblety,Margaret Mrs, h. Plymouth Av.


1864 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow James h. Plymouth


1866 (RCD) Tumelty, Margaret widow James h. Plymouth ave. cor. German
1867 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow James h. Plymouth



1868 (RCD) Tumbelty, Margaret wid James h.Plymouth ave.cor Magnolia
1869 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret Widow of James house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia


1870 census Margaret Funiblety Estimated Birth Year: abt 1788 Age in 1870: 82 Birthplace: Ireland Home in 1870: Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York Race: White Gender: Female Post Office: Rochester Household Members: Name Age Margaret Funiblety 82 Alice Fitzsimmons 61 Mary Fitzsimmons 30



!870 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia


1671 (RCD) Tumuelty, Margaret widow house Plymouth


1872 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow boards Plymouth avenue corner Magnolia

1873 27 May Died; buried Holy Sepulcher Cemetary, Rochester, New York.

Margaret lived to be a ripe old age for the times. She bore 11 or 12 children (more on that later) and made the transition from Ireland to Rochester, New York. She was a very hearty woman.


Lawrence Tumblety was the eldest brother of Francis. He never married, lived in the same Rochester neighborhood from 1844 to 1898 and was a gardener all of his life. His mother and two youngest siblings lived with him, in the late 1840’s, and early 1850’s . He was the first recorded Tumblety in the country. Also it appears that he changed his name from Tumblety to Tumuelty in 1875. That is the name on the family memorial in Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Rochester. It is also the name in the 1844 city directory.
Francis and Lawrence appeared to have been direct opposites. Francis was a flamboyant world traveler who made his money by any means he saw fit. Lawrence was a stay at home kind of guy as previously noted who toiled in other people’s gardens
.However, they did have one thing in common. Lawrence was a confirmed bachelor and Francis might as well have been one also.

Lawrence was found regularly in the Rochester City Directories.. I could not find him in the 1870 or 1880 census using every search trick I knew.. Here is a profile of him. Please note; If a source is not identified. It is from the Rochester City Directories.




1820 born in Ireland

1844 Rochester City Directory (RCD) Lawrence TUMUELTY b.(board) cor S.Sophia and Clarissa

1848/49 Rochester City Directory: Lawrence TUMIALTY, gardener last h. S.Sophia

1850 Census Name: Lawrence Tumathy Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821 Birth Place: Ireland Gender: Male Home in 1850(City,County,State): Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York
Household Members: Ann Tumathy age 22; Francis Tumathy age 19; Lawrence Tumathy age 29; Margaret Tumathy age 62.

1851/52 Rochster City Directory: Lawrence TUMILTY, gardener, h. S.Sophia near Flint

1859
Tumblety, Lawrence
Speculator
h. Plymouth Av.


1860 Federal Census Name: Lawrence Trnblte Age in 1860: 40 Birth Year: abt 1820 Birthplace: Ireland Home in 1860: Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York Gender: Male Post Office: Gates Value of real estate: Household Members: Lawrence Trnblte age 40; Margarett Trnblte age 71: Robert W Wilkins age 50; William Hayden 37; Mary Hayden age 37; Bridget Hayden age 17.

1861
Tumblety, Lawrence
Gardener
h. Plymouth Av.

1864
Tumblety, La wrence
Gardener
h. Plymouth ave. cor. German

1866
Tumelty, Lawrence
gardner
h Plymouth ave, cor. German

1867
Tumbelty. Lawrence
Gardener
h.Plymouth ave.cor German

1871
Tumuelty, Lawrence
Gardener
house 248 Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia

1872
Tumuelty, Lawrence
house Plymouth avenue

1873
Tumblety, Lawrence
house Plymouth avenue n. Magnolia

1874
Tumblety, Kawrence
nurse
h. 250 Plymouth av. N Magnolia

1875
Tumuelty, Lawrence
nurse
h.250 Plymouth avenue
1876
Tumuelty, Lawrence
nurse
h. 250 Plymouth av.

1877
Tumuelty, Lawrence
Nurseryman
house 250 Plymouth avenue

1878
Tumuelty, Lawrence
Nurseryman
house 250 Plymouth avenue

1879
Tumuelty, Lawrence
Nurseryman
house 250 Plymouth avenue

1880
Tumuelty, Lawrence
Nurseryman
house 254

1881
Tumeulty, Lawrence
Nurseryman
House 254

1889
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
h. 528 Plymouth avenue

1890
Tumuelty, Lawrence
Gardener
h. 528 Plymouth avenue

1891
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
h. 528 Plymouth avenue

1892
Tumuelty. Lawrence
gardener
house 528 Plymouth avenues

1893
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
house 528 Plymouth av.

1894
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
house 528 Plymouth av.

1895
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
hosue 528 Plymouth av.

1896
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
house 528 Plymouth av.

1897
Tumuelty, Lawrence
gardener
house 528 Plymouth av.

1898
Tumuelty, Lawrence
died


1898 The inscription on the family memorial in Holy Sepulchre Cemetery states:
Lawrence TUMUELTY, 14 February 1898, 79 yrs

Patrick Tumblety was Francis’ other brother. While I am not sure when he entered this country, he was possibly the Jas. age 26 who entered with this mother in 1847. His son is James Patrick and his grandson is Patrick James and his father is James. So there is a possibility that he was James Patrick or Patrick James and to avoid confusion he was called Patrick. He married a woman named Mary they had only one son James P. who was born in 1851. Patrick died at a young age on Sep 20,1859 when he was hit by a falling chimney. Patrick had worked at the gas works as a fireman and a laborer.
Mary did not die until 1877. It appears that Mary and her son James moved in with Margaret and Lawrence on Plymouth ave. about 1861. His son James Patrick Tumblety (changes his name to Tumilty in 1875) appeared to be fairly prominent in Rochester. We never get a clear look at what he did for a living through the city directories but in the census he was a capitalist in 1900 and “own insurance” in 1910. Additionally, he was an assembly man in Rochester. He was married to Mary J. from England and they had 7 children. He died in 1911.
Patrick is found in the city directories and the 1850 census. His wife is found in the city directories until she died in 1877
1850 census Name: Pat Timothy Age: 27 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823 Birth Place: Ireland Gender: Male Home in 1850(City,County,State): Rochester Ward 5, Monroe, New York Household Members:
Name
Age
Mary Timothy
27
Pat Timothy
27

1849
Tummialty, Patric
Fireman, Gas Works
b. Rapids
1851
Tumialty, Patrick
Fireman, Gas Works
h. 6 Andrews
1853
Tumilty, Patrick
Gas works, Mumford
h. Orange
1855
Tumelty, Patrick
Gas works,
h. Orange
1857
Tumilty, Patrick
Laborer Gas Works
h. Orange
1859
Tumblety, Patrick
Laborer, Gas Works
h. Sophia
1861
Tumblety, Mary Mrs.
h. Plymouth Av.
1863
Tumblety, Mary
widow Patrick
h. Plymouth Av. Cor. Gorman
1864
Tumblety. Mary
widow Patrick
h. Plymouth ave. cor. German
1866
Tumelty, Mary
wid. Patrick
h. Plymouth ave cor German
1867
Tumblelty. Mary
widow Patrick
h. Plymouth ave cor German
1868
Tumbelty, Mary
wid. Patrick
h. Plymouth
1869
Tumblety, Mary
Widow of Patrick
house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia
1870
Tumblety, Mary
Widow
house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia
1871
Tumblety, James P.
laborer, boards
Magnolia near Plymouth Avenue
Tumuelty, Mary
widow
house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia
1872
Tumblety, James P.
laborer
boards Magnolianear Plymouth avenue
Tumblety, Mary
widow
house Magnolia near Plymouth avenue
1873
Tumblety, James P.
laborer
boards Magnolia near Plymouth avenue
Tumblety, Mary P.
widow
house Magnolia
1874
Tumblety, JamesW.
actor
boards Magnolia near Plymouth avenue
Tumblety. Mary P.
widow
house Magnolia
1876
Tumilty, James
b. Plymouth av c. Magnolia
Tumilty, Mary
widow
house Plymouth av. Corner Magnolia
1877
Tumilty, James W.
bds. Plymouth avenue c. Magnolia
Tumilty, Mary
widow
house Plymouth av.
1878
Tumilty, James W.
boards Plymouth avenue corner Magnolia
Tumilty,Mary
deceased May 12, 1877

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi all,
Just wanted to say a massive THANK YOU to everyone so far who has replied to my query about Tumblety's origins in Ireland.
Have not yet had a chance to go through everything here but will follow the leads to some progress on this topic (I hope).
Will keep you posted.
More leads/ ideas/ info if you have any! Thanks again.

[curious4]

Tumblety

Hello all,

Purely speculative, but as I am interested in surnames and their meanings and have been trying to find the possible origins of Tumblety or Twumblety without success (haven't gone very deeply into this, I must admit). I wonder whether the name could have come from the gaelic tuama, a grave or burial mound, and thus the name could mean "the people who live near the burial mound".

Best wishes,
C4

The surname Tuama does seem to exist, perhaps from the 1960s, when it became fashionable among young irish people to take the gaelic form of their names.

[mklhawley]

Here's another possibility. I do have Francis' mother's maiden name. Maybe the father, James, married her in the same area in Ireland.

Monroe County records (City of Rochester is in) Index to Newspapers published, which has,

James Tumelty
Married Margaret Conxelly
RDA, D 2, 1844, 2-6



Also, Joe Chetcuti created a Tumblety timeline on JTRForums:
Joe Chetcuti05-08-2007, 09:26 PM
January - May 1830

Tumblety was born in Ireland, possibly in either Roscommon or Westmeath County. There were three times when his family provided the doctor's age, and all three times his birthdate would have appeared somewhere in the January - May 1830 time frame. The doctor constantly fluctuated his age, such as on the passenger list documents of his transatlantic voyages. But this deception was not practiced by his family who was consistent about giving the doctor's age when required.

1844

Tumblety's older brother Lawrence had established himself in Rochester, New York by this year.

1847

During Christmas time 2005, Alan Sharp and I did some Ireland research together. Alan discovered that a Francis Tumblety was listed in the Griffiths Valuation Records as having rented a house and office in the Towns Park of Swords County, Ireland. This listing appeared in 1847 & 1848. Alan believes the name Francis Tumblety was uncommon, so we may have gotten lucky here in finding our young man.

It should be mentioned though that Tim Riordan has proof that Tumblety (along with his mother, sister, and cousin) traveled on the Ashburton from Great Britain to New York. They arrived on June 21, 1847 and we feel this was Francis Tumblety's initial arrival in America.

Alan says the name Tumblety is a derivation of Tumulty, a name which uniquely hails from the counties of Roscommon and Westmeath, Ireland. But just in case Tumblety was born in Swords County, I checked into the Baptismal Records of the old St. Colmcilles Church in Swords. It turned out that the Baptismal Records for Swords have not survived for the years prior to 1835.

I'd like to thank both Alan and Tim for allowing me to share this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe Chetcuti05-10-2007, 05:14 PM
I just heard from Alan and he clarified that Swords is a town in County Dublin. (Swords is not a county itself.) It's located in the northern part of County Dublin near the airport.

In June, I'll post Part Two of the Timeline (1848-1854) but these were the mysterious years. I doubt if I'll be adding anything new to what is already known. Anybody can feel free to jump in and submit tidbits to the Timeline whenever you like.




Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Oops! I left out a critical piece with Francis' mother's maiden name. The 'x' in 'Conxelly' as a slash through it, so it's most likely 'Conelly'.

James Tumelty
Married Margaret Conxelly(Conelly)
RDA, D 2, 1844, 2-6

[mklhawley]

Hi Siobhan,

Joe just informed me that his post on Jtrforus was six years ago, and since then they have confirmed that the "Francis Tumblety" who was listed in the Griffiths Valuation Records, and who had rented a house & office in the Town Park of Swords, was NOT the man who would later become the Ripper Suspect. It was a different man with the same name.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,

Joe just informed me that his post on Jtrforus was six years ago, and since then they have confirmed that the "Francis Tumblety" who was listed in the Griffiths Valuation Records, and who had rented a house & office in the Town Park of Swords, was NOT the man who would later become the Ripper Suspect. It was a different man with the same name.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike,
I came across that record just after I joined Casebook and got very excited. Posted info on here and got knocked back...
But thanks anyway...

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Link here to request by me for info about Tumblety's possible origins in Cavan, Ireland.
It started out as a simple letter to readers of the Anglo-Celt but one staff journalist decided to morph it into a feature story (with inaccuracies). In fairness to the local journo, he figured out where "Inniskillen Falls" is in Ireland. Tumblety mentioned it in one of his autobiographies.
Yes, indeed, "Inniskillen Falls" are in Cavan and not Co. Fermanagh...
In the 18-19th centuries they claimed to do cures for all sorts of ailments (a bit like Lourdes) - anything to get the American tourists to come to Ireland!
Will let you know if anything credible comes back from Anglo-Celt readers. Cavan genealogy have come up with nothing as already got on to them. I did get a few lengthy emails already - from people on Casebook who prefer other suspects to Tumblety....Typical that! didn't realise the Anglo-Celt newspaper was so widely read.

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/inthepaper/articles/2013/05/29/4016074-was-jack-the-ripper-really-from-cavan/#comments

[Bridewell]

Hi Mike,
I came across that record just after I joined Casebook and got very excited. Posted info on here and got knocked back...
But thanks anyway...

Hi Siobhan,

Good to see that it hasn't put you off