Was Tumblety in Jail during the Kelly Murder?

[Natasha]

Also, Tumblety had no intensions of leaving England, since he knew they had nothing on him for the Ripper murders. He would not have been afraid of this, especially since he could afford the best legal team. He left England because he knew they had him on the gross indecency charge.

With regards to Tumblety's hatred of women, he certainly did have an unusual hatred. I agree that the Kelly murder was organized, which is also why Tumblety would have been an excellent candidate. No one suggests his hatred of women was his sole motive (if he were the killer). You might want to read my 'Tumblety the Woman Hater' article.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks I will do

[mklhawley]

Also, Tumblety had no intensions of leaving England, since he knew they had nothing on him for the Ripper murders. He would not have been afraid of this, especially since he could afford the best legal team. He left England because he knew they had him on the gross indecency charge.

With regards to Tumblety's hatred of women, he certainly did have an unusual hatred. I agree that the Kelly murder was organized, which is also why Tumblety would have been an excellent candidate. No one suggests his hatred of women was his sole motive (if he were the killer). You might want to read my 'Tumblety the Woman Hater' article.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Natasha]

Hi Mike

Ok, well I guess I'll have to catch up on all the new discoveries

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike

On here:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/tumblety.html

Hi Natasha,

This synopsis is outdated. Much has been discovered since it's writing. The author of this is simply incorrect.

Mike

[Natasha]

Hi Mike

On here:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/tumblety.html

[mklhawley]

Hi All

Francis Tumblety returned to Liverpool in June of 1888, and once again found himself at odds with the police. He was arrested on November 7th, 1888 on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27th and November 2.Tumblety was then charged on suspicion of the Whitechapel murders on the 12th (suggested he was free to kill Kelly between the 7th and 12th). Tumblety was bailed on November 16th. A hearing was held on November 20th at the Old Bailey, and the trial postponed until December 10th. Tumblety then fled to France under the alias ‘Frank Townsend’ on the 24th, and from there took the steamer La Bretagne to New York City

Hi Natasha,

Before I handle your later misconceptions, were did you get this quoted statement, because it's wrong?

Tumblety was not arrested on suspicion on the 12th. He was definitely arrested for gross indecency and indecent assault on the 7th, and was arrested on suspicion prior to this. Why is this arrest not recorded in the court records? Because the court records only pertained to the gross indecency arrest, therefore, they should not in it.

Mike

[Natasha]

Hi All

Francis Tumblety returned to Liverpool in June of 1888, and once again found himself at odds with the police. He was arrested on November 7th, 1888 on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27th and November 2.Tumblety was then charged on suspicion of the Whitechapel murders on the 12th (suggested he was free to kill Kelly between the 7th and 12th). Tumblety was bailed on November 16th. A hearing was held on November 20th at the Old Bailey, and the trial postponed until December 10th. Tumblety then fled to France under the alias ‘Frank Townsend’ on the 24th, and from there took the steamer La Bretagne to New York City

It appears he wasn't charged, just arrested. Why would he hang around after Kelly's murder? If he was the ripper why not flee London and go back to New York, before he was charged? He had money, I don't see why he would stick around knowing for sure how much attention was drawn to the murders, especially as he was paranoid.

Was he definitely in London when the murders happened (before Kelly)?

Though it's said there was no mention of Tumblety in the UK papers, there was a UK newspaper article I saw which mentioned an American Dr, who was suspicious because he was asking about selling organs or something to that effect, the paper (I can't remember which one, will have to find it again) referred to the American as Dr T. I still don't believe Tumblety was the ripper despite what the article said. The killer went beyond stealing organs, and if Tumblety was indeed selling organs would it not make sense to obtain them from a healthy person, rather than women who may have had diseased organs?

Personally I don't think Tumblety was the ripper. he had an egotistical nature and his motivations were financially driven. I feel that Kelly's murder was organised. It appears to have been planned. The key was missing, the people that usually resided there, Barnett, friends etc were not there. The killer would need to know for certain that he would not be disturbed.
She had no money, and if people believe that her murder was due to a botched abortion, I doubt he would have performed one for free for starters. Secondly why go to the trouble of covering an abortion up? He was money motivated, no organs were taken from Kelly. I know the report says otherwise, but it was stated in a news article that all the pieces were indeed there, despite first impressions, and were sewed back into place at the mortuary.

Misogynist: He may have hated women according to what witness s say, but I don't think this necessarily warrants that he would go as far as to kill women. We know he was gay, so I think it pointless that he would solicit women in the guise of a customer for reasons I mentioned above. We also have to question his alleged marriage to a prostitute. He was gay wasn't he? If so then I doubt he would care what his 'wife' did. If he was married or pretended to be, this would serve as a good cover for his homosexual tendencies.

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the clarification. Then what was the gross indecency arrest all about? Was it simply a way to question him further without fear of false arrest?

c.d.

Exactly, which is what the November 17 article inferred. As evidenced by Asst Commissioner Anderson personally getting involved and Littlechild remembering him after two decades, something had Scotland Yard interested in him (American with letters in his pocket stating he was an MD, slouch hat, reported hatred of women, etc). Were they entirely convinced he was JTR? I don't think so, but he was the most significant suspect in November 1888. If they were successful in putting him behind bars for gross indecency AND the murders suddenly stopped (which is why I believe they tried to prosecute), then they could tell the public they have their man. This also explains why they solicited information from North America just incase this scenario played out.

Sincerely,
Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the clarification. Then what was the gross indecency arrest all about? Was it simply a way to question him further without fear of false arrest?

c.d.

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. A bit of clarification - I was under the impression that we only have Tumblety's word for it that he was arrested on suspicion of the Ripper murders. You mention a London correspondent. Is he giving first hand knowledge or merely reporting what Tumblety told him?

As for him being a coward yes he did take chances but wasn't he all bluff?

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

No, Tumblety being arrested on suspicion BEFORE being arrested for gross indecency was first reported by the New York World's chief London correspondent Tracy Greaves on November 17, 1888. All competing daily papers, including the Associated Press, then reported it. This is what my article in RIP 139 was all about, which is titled, Tumblety 'Over the Wire'.

Assistant Commissioner Anderson reported it, as well, but he didn't plan on the public seeing it. Per the Associated Press (picked up by the Brooklyn Citizen), Assistant Commissioner Anderson wired to Superintendent Campbell: "Tumblety was arrested in London some weeks ago as the supposed Whitechapel murderer."

Some have suggested that Tumblety came up with this and told the London correspondent, but I demonstrated why this couldn't work. Least of which, how would the Assistant Commissioner get sucked into a ruse from Tumblety when he had reports from his own subordinates.

Sincerely,

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. A bit of clarification - I was under the impression that we only have Tumblety's word for it that he was arrested on suspicion of the Ripper murders. You mention a London correspondent. Is he giving first hand knowledge or merely reporting what Tumblety told him?

As for him being a coward yes he did take chances but wasn't he all bluff?

c.d.

[mklhawley]

Oh yes, the idea of an American possibly being the Ripper was well established, especially with the American Slouch Hat. If you look at the press reports, they were searching for a suspect with such a hat in early November 1888, and Tumblety even admitted he wore one. The fact that Tumblety's letters in his pocket claimed he was an MD, really gave them cause for concern, especially when the 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' theories were also well entrenched.

Mike

[Batman]

Per Roger Palmer, the plan to have Andrews go to America was formulated when Tumblety had yet to sneak out of England. Just as Sir Robert Anderson was soliciting US chiefs of police for information on Ripper suspect Francis Tumblety, Andrews was doing the same and personally taking the information back.

Okay, that makes sense now. So they were already investigating American connections when Tumblety appears and then dissappears from Whitechapel to the USA during the murders where the investigators had already setup a man on the ground for such things.

[mklhawley]

Okay, so Littlechild just names Dr. T/D in a letter and someone else had gone to America but not to chase after Tumblety?

So Tumblety was not chased to America and Whitechapel investigators had nothing to do with sending anyone after him?

I'd like to know more because this addresses the 3 questions I have.

Hi Batman,

Per Roger Palmer, the plan to have Andrews go to America was formulated when Tumblety had yet to sneak out of England. Just as Sir Robert Anderson was soliciting US chiefs of police for information on Ripper suspect Francis Tumblety, Andrews was doing the same and personally taking the information back. Was Tumblety a significant enough suspect in November 1888 to have Andrews do this? He was significant enough to have the Assistant Commissioner involve himself. Scotland Yard had no other big suspects at the time. Druitt and Kosminski came on the radar screen later, at the same time Tumblety fell off the radar screen when McKenzie was murdered (at the time Scotland Yard was convinced McKenzie was a Ripper victim and since Tumblety was in New York, living a half mile from Carrie Brown, he couldn't have been in their eyes).

Sincerely,

Mike

[RockySullivan]

Tumblety was nobody's fool and had certainly been around the block before as far as dealing with police. I find it very hard to believe that he would have been so naive as to think he was being questioned solely for his alleged homosexual activities. I think it would have certainly occurred to him that he was a suspect in the Ripper murders and that he was now being watched. Assuming that he was out on bail for him to then go out and kill Mary Kelly would have taken some major league cojones and his M.O. when faced with trouble seems to have been to flee. So to connect him to the Kelly murder seems like a real stretch.

c.d.

I wonder if the reason Mary Kelly was killed indoors was because the ripper knew he was being watched and couldn't take the risk of killing on the street. Perhaps the ripper just had something different in mind for Mary Kelly , after the all the mutilations are a whole lot more violent

Edit: personally I have my suspicions that Mary was in the process of becoming a whole bunch pieces and the killer was interrupted or something made him abort.