Was Tumblety in Jail during the Kelly Murder?

[Dr. John Watson]

Hi John,

. . . Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike:

Frankly, I've never bought into the assertion that Tumblety "hated" women. He was undoubtedly a homosexual with a preference for boys and young men, but it does not necessarily follow that he had a violent aversion to women, as so often alleged. In fact, at least one press article in the U.S. makes note of the fact that he was popular with the ladies and that much of his income came from women. He may have disliked women in general, but there is no real evidence that he hated the female sex. He likely did warn young men of the dangers of venerial disease and caution them against having relations with women, and prostitutes in particular, as did many legitimate physicians of the time. Of course considering Tumblety's own sexual preferences, one suspects his motives for doing this were ulterior, perhaps having more to do with suggesting alternate avenues of sexual release (like with other men) than for health reasons.

John

[Cogidubnus]

Whoever remains in Dr. T's family are likely NOT direct descendants. (heh-heh)

Gotta laugh Lynn...I've recently worked with someone who was "NOT direct descendants" with Ivor Novello! (his grandmother was in fact I.N's sister)

All the best

Dave

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

I believe you read into that request that it was as a Ripper suspect, not that the request stated the individual was suspected in those crimes. As Lynn mentioned Fenian Fire, and Id be surprised if you werent already aware of it, Anderson had plenty on his mind that Fall that had nothing to do with any Ripper. Since at least 2 Fenian spies under his tutelage were based in New York and since Tumblety's reputation included that of a money launderer for the Fenians the request for information on Tumblety could have easily been based on that line of questioning.

Anderson was routinely involved in matters concerning National Security and had alliances in both New York and Paris to cover the movements seeking Irish Self Rule.

Thats why Ive always found his return from his rest in Switzerland, via Paris, to be of interest.

Best regards,

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm certainly intrigued by Tumblety's Fenian connections, but with regards to that particular cable to Brooklyn's Chief of Police:

Brooklyn Citizen, November 23, 1888
“Is He The Ripper?” A Brooklynite Charged With the Whitechapel Murders. Superintendent Campbell Asked by the London Police to Hunt Up the Record of Francis Tumblety — Captain Eason Supplies the Information and It Is Interesting
Police Superintendent Campbell received a cable dispatch yesterday from Mr. Anderson, the deputy chief of the London Police, asking him to make some inquiries about Francis Tumblety, who is under arrest in England on the charge of indecent assault. Tumblety is referred to in the dispatch in the following manner: “He says he is known to you, Chief, as Brooklyn’s Beauty.”
Tumblety was arrested in London some weeks ago as the supposed Whitechapel murderer. Since his incarceration in prison he has boasted of how he had succeeded in baffling the police. He also claimed that he was a resident of Brooklyn, and this was what caused the Deputy Chief of Police to communicate with Superintendent Campbell. The superintendent gave the dispatch immediate attention, and through Captain Eason, of the Second Precinct, has learned all about Tumblety. He came to this city in 1863 from Sherbrook, Canada, where he said he had been a practicing physician. He opened a store on the southeast corner of Fulton and Nassau streets, and sold herb preparations. He did a tremendous business and deposited in the Brooklyn Savings Bank at least $100 a day. He was a very eccentric character, six feet high, dark complexion, large and long flowing mustache, and well built.


This article is all about the Whitechapel investigation. It also coincides perfectly with his Anderson's interaction with San Francisco's Chief of Police and Inspector Andrews' trip to Canada; a trip Roger Palmer demonstrated convincingly that it involved the Whitechapel investigation.

My guess is if it pertained to Littlechild and 'Special Branch', they most likely would not have cabled a big mouth American Chief of Police.

I can't completely disregard your logic, though. As I say, I'm very intrigued by the Irish Nationalist connections.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Lynn,

No- not direct. LOL

BUT, according to 'the man behind the screen' remember, Judas Iscariot's living decendants would be in danger...

So even if Tumblety's great great great nephew's half hrother, 5 times removed is alive, and Tumblety was an informant, SY WON'T release the name, or file, or both, of Tumblety.
It's SY policy.

Cue Mr. Marriott.

Great these things that go around in circles, arent they? Just think. Even though Ive heard that all SB files from that time have been destroyed, (including Pheonix Park etc by the way) we cant find out about a possible mass murderer, and possibly help CLEAR his name once and for all, because SY wont release any name of aoy informant from any material in their keep. Said another way, being an informant actually protects their identity IF they happen to be a law breaker- suspected multiple murderer or not.

Way to go SY! Priorities well weighed up.

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

Brave Sir Robert

Hello Mike.

"That's why I've always found his return from his rest in Switzerland, via Paris, to be of interest."

You and almost anyone who has studied Dr. Anderson's autumnal peregrinations.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

last of the line

Hello Phil. Thanks.

Whoever remains in Dr. T's family are likely NOT direct descendants. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi John,

Something, though, made Sir Robert Anderson personally request information from Brooklyn's Chief of Police on Francis Tumblety -as a Ripper suspect- post Kelly murder. Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike,

I believe you read into that request that it was as a Ripper suspect, not that the request stated the individual was suspected in those crimes. As Lynn mentioned Fenian Fire, and Id be surprised if you werent already aware of it, Anderson had plenty on his mind that Fall that had nothing to do with any Ripper. Since at least 2 Fenian spies under his tutelage were based in New York and since Tumblety's reputation included that of a money launderer for the Fenians the request for information on Tumblety could have easily been based on that line of questioning.

Anderson was routinely involved in matters concerning National Security and had alliances in both New York and Paris to cover the movements seeking Irish Self Rule.

Thats why Ive always found his return from his rest in Switzerland, via Paris, to be of interest.

Best regards,

Michael

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil.

"it might have an informant's name in it."

Indeed. And what if that informant's name were Francis Tumblety?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Interesting thought, rhymes with 'where did he get all his money, honey?'

A LARGE file on Tumblety would have tons of stuff in it if he were indeed an informant.

But we won't ever see it. According to SY, family members of his today could be in 'danger'. It is SY POLICY to never reveal the name of an informant.

Where's Julian Assange when you need him?
"Ripperleaks", anyone?

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

informant

Hello Phil.

"it might have an informant's name in it."

Indeed. And what if that informant's name were Francis Tumblety?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Hayes

Hello John. Thanks. Very astute post. I, too, have wondered where his money came from.

One of Sir Ed Jenkinson's best informants from America was John Patrick Hayes. There is a thread where research is continuing into this Hayes to ascertain whether it is the same family related to Tumblety.

If you have read "Fenian Fire" you know how lucrative the informant business could be.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Hello Mike,

We agree here, but if that or any other file still exists, Scotland Yard will never let you see it- it might have an informant's name in it.

And if it exists outside SY, as a purlioned piece it can't be revealed unless it got leaked in it's entirity to a newspaper 'anonymously'...

125th Anniversary soon isn't it?
Makes you wonder what's in the pipeline...

Best wishes

Phil

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike,

I'd bet various American looking 'slouch hat' wearers were suspected by all and sundry in the middle of all this. A certain Coroner contibuted to that.
It really amounts to very little. Tumblety would have stood out like a sore thumb if seen anywhere near any of the murder sites on those particular dates and times.

What sort of person uses the Press to promote his 'being involved' at later dates? An attention seeker. He cant exactly promote the 'playing with boys' arrest can he? He milked the JTR scenario for all it was worth. For attention.

Best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

Interesting thoughts. One thing I do know is Tumblety never seeked attention unless it supported his public 'higher status' persona or his money making herbal business. This would have done neither, and if you read his later autobiographies, he avoids any issues about this. If he did try to milk it, he would have added a whole chapter in it in his later works. Just my thoughts.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

I'd bet various American looking 'slouch hat' wearers were suspected by all and sundry in the middle of all this. A certain Coroner contibuted to that.
It really amounts to very little. Tumblety would have stood out like a sore thumb if seen anywhere near any of the murder sites on those particular dates and times.

What sort of person uses the Press to promote his 'being involved' at later dates? An attention seeker. He cant exactly promote the 'playing with boys' arrest can he? He milked the JTR scenario for all it was worth. For attention.

Best wishes

Phil

[mklhawley]

I do agree that once Tumblety had been questioned about the Ripper murders, he would likely suspect he might be under surveillance and would certainly not risk picking up any more young men for sex (by then, of course, it was too late!), much less murdering anyone!

John

Hi John,

Something, though, made Sir Robert Anderson personally request information from Brooklyn's Chief of Police on Francis Tumblety -as a Ripper suspect- post Kelly murder. Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

You have changed again you have gone from him being arrested as a ripper suspect to being arrested for some suspicious behaviour

Just as the cable source stated, "On suspicion of the Whitechapel crimes", so suspicious behavior AND a suspicious look specific to that, as in slouch hat, a lone man, holding onto a ten inch blade (well, maybe not that one).