Was Tumblety in Jail during the Kelly Murder?

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike,

I'd bet various American looking 'slouch hat' wearers were suspected by all and sundry in the middle of all this. A certain Coroner contibuted to that.
It really amounts to very little. Tumblety would have stood out like a sore thumb if seen anywhere near any of the murder sites on those particular dates and times.

What sort of person uses the Press to promote his 'being involved' at later dates? An attention seeker. He cant exactly promote the 'playing with boys' arrest can he? He milked the JTR scenario for all it was worth. For attention.

Best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

Interesting thoughts. One thing I do know is Tumblety never seeked attention unless it supported his public 'higher status' persona or his money making herbal business. This would have done neither, and if you read his later autobiographies, he avoids any issues about this. If he did try to milk it, he would have added a whole chapter in it in his later works. Just my thoughts.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Phil Carter]

Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Hello Mike,

We agree here, but if that or any other file still exists, Scotland Yard will never let you see it- it might have an informant's name in it.

And if it exists outside SY, as a purlioned piece it can't be revealed unless it got leaked in it's entirity to a newspaper 'anonymously'...

125th Anniversary soon isn't it?
Makes you wonder what's in the pipeline...

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

Hayes

Hello John. Thanks. Very astute post. I, too, have wondered where his money came from.

One of Sir Ed Jenkinson's best informants from America was John Patrick Hayes. There is a thread where research is continuing into this Hayes to ascertain whether it is the same family related to Tumblety.

If you have read "Fenian Fire" you know how lucrative the informant business could be.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

informant

Hello Phil.

"it might have an informant's name in it."

Indeed. And what if that informant's name were Francis Tumblety?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil.

"it might have an informant's name in it."

Indeed. And what if that informant's name were Francis Tumblety?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Interesting thought, rhymes with 'where did he get all his money, honey?'

A LARGE file on Tumblety would have tons of stuff in it if he were indeed an informant.

But we won't ever see it. According to SY, family members of his today could be in 'danger'. It is SY POLICY to never reveal the name of an informant.

Where's Julian Assange when you need him?
"Ripperleaks", anyone?

Best wishes

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Hi John,

Something, though, made Sir Robert Anderson personally request information from Brooklyn's Chief of Police on Francis Tumblety -as a Ripper suspect- post Kelly murder. Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike,

I believe you read into that request that it was as a Ripper suspect, not that the request stated the individual was suspected in those crimes. As Lynn mentioned Fenian Fire, and Id be surprised if you werent already aware of it, Anderson had plenty on his mind that Fall that had nothing to do with any Ripper. Since at least 2 Fenian spies under his tutelage were based in New York and since Tumblety's reputation included that of a money launderer for the Fenians the request for information on Tumblety could have easily been based on that line of questioning.

Anderson was routinely involved in matters concerning National Security and had alliances in both New York and Paris to cover the movements seeking Irish Self Rule.

Thats why Ive always found his return from his rest in Switzerland, via Paris, to be of interest.

Best regards,

Michael

[lynn cates]

last of the line

Hello Phil. Thanks.

Whoever remains in Dr. T's family are likely NOT direct descendants. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Brave Sir Robert

Hello Mike.

"That's why I've always found his return from his rest in Switzerland, via Paris, to be of interest."

You and almost anyone who has studied Dr. Anderson's autumnal peregrinations.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello Lynn,

No- not direct. LOL

BUT, according to 'the man behind the screen' remember, Judas Iscariot's living decendants would be in danger...

So even if Tumblety's great great great nephew's half hrother, 5 times removed is alive, and Tumblety was an informant, SY WON'T release the name, or file, or both, of Tumblety.
It's SY policy.

Cue Mr. Marriott.

Great these things that go around in circles, arent they? Just think. Even though Ive heard that all SB files from that time have been destroyed, (including Pheonix Park etc by the way) we cant find out about a possible mass murderer, and possibly help CLEAR his name once and for all, because SY wont release any name of aoy informant from any material in their keep. Said another way, being an informant actually protects their identity IF they happen to be a law breaker- suspected multiple murderer or not.

Way to go SY! Priorities well weighed up.

Best wishes

Phil

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

I believe you read into that request that it was as a Ripper suspect, not that the request stated the individual was suspected in those crimes. As Lynn mentioned Fenian Fire, and Id be surprised if you werent already aware of it, Anderson had plenty on his mind that Fall that had nothing to do with any Ripper. Since at least 2 Fenian spies under his tutelage were based in New York and since Tumblety's reputation included that of a money launderer for the Fenians the request for information on Tumblety could have easily been based on that line of questioning.

Anderson was routinely involved in matters concerning National Security and had alliances in both New York and Paris to cover the movements seeking Irish Self Rule.

Thats why Ive always found his return from his rest in Switzerland, via Paris, to be of interest.

Best regards,

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm certainly intrigued by Tumblety's Fenian connections, but with regards to that particular cable to Brooklyn's Chief of Police:

Brooklyn Citizen, November 23, 1888
“Is He The Ripper?” A Brooklynite Charged With the Whitechapel Murders. Superintendent Campbell Asked by the London Police to Hunt Up the Record of Francis Tumblety — Captain Eason Supplies the Information and It Is Interesting
Police Superintendent Campbell received a cable dispatch yesterday from Mr. Anderson, the deputy chief of the London Police, asking him to make some inquiries about Francis Tumblety, who is under arrest in England on the charge of indecent assault. Tumblety is referred to in the dispatch in the following manner: “He says he is known to you, Chief, as Brooklyn’s Beauty.”
Tumblety was arrested in London some weeks ago as the supposed Whitechapel murderer. Since his incarceration in prison he has boasted of how he had succeeded in baffling the police. He also claimed that he was a resident of Brooklyn, and this was what caused the Deputy Chief of Police to communicate with Superintendent Campbell. The superintendent gave the dispatch immediate attention, and through Captain Eason, of the Second Precinct, has learned all about Tumblety. He came to this city in 1863 from Sherbrook, Canada, where he said he had been a practicing physician. He opened a store on the southeast corner of Fulton and Nassau streets, and sold herb preparations. He did a tremendous business and deposited in the Brooklyn Savings Bank at least $100 a day. He was a very eccentric character, six feet high, dark complexion, large and long flowing mustache, and well built.


This article is all about the Whitechapel investigation. It also coincides perfectly with his Anderson's interaction with San Francisco's Chief of Police and Inspector Andrews' trip to Canada; a trip Roger Palmer demonstrated convincingly that it involved the Whitechapel investigation.

My guess is if it pertained to Littlechild and 'Special Branch', they most likely would not have cabled a big mouth American Chief of Police.

I can't completely disregard your logic, though. As I say, I'm very intrigued by the Irish Nationalist connections.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Cogidubnus]

Whoever remains in Dr. T's family are likely NOT direct descendants. (heh-heh)

Gotta laugh Lynn...I've recently worked with someone who was "NOT direct descendants" with Ivor Novello! (his grandmother was in fact I.N's sister)

All the best

Dave

[Dr. John Watson]

Hi John,

. . . Besides making a comment about a large file on Tumblety, Littlechild discussed extensively on the bitter hatred of women. It certainly would be great to find and read that file.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike:

Frankly, I've never bought into the assertion that Tumblety "hated" women. He was undoubtedly a homosexual with a preference for boys and young men, but it does not necessarily follow that he had a violent aversion to women, as so often alleged. In fact, at least one press article in the U.S. makes note of the fact that he was popular with the ladies and that much of his income came from women. He may have disliked women in general, but there is no real evidence that he hated the female sex. He likely did warn young men of the dangers of venerial disease and caution them against having relations with women, and prostitutes in particular, as did many legitimate physicians of the time. Of course considering Tumblety's own sexual preferences, one suspects his motives for doing this were ulterior, perhaps having more to do with suggesting alternate avenues of sexual release (like with other men) than for health reasons.

John

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike:

Frankly, I've never bought into the assertion that Tumblety "hated" women. He was undoubtedly a homosexual with a preference for boys and young men, but it does not necessarily follow that he had a violent aversion to women, as so often alleged. In fact, at least one press article in the U.S. makes note of the fact that he was popular with the ladies and that much of his income came from women. He may have disliked women in general, but there is no real evidence that he hated the female sex. He likely did warn young men of the dangers of venerial disease and caution them against having relations with women, and prostitutes in particular, as did many legitimate physicians of the time. Of course considering Tumblety's own sexual preferences, one suspects his motives for doing this were ulterior, perhaps having more to do with suggesting alternate avenues of sexual release (like with other men) than for health reasons.

John

Hi John,

I believe your conclusion about this issue needs to be reassessed, since new information has come to light. I can't reveal all (not mine to give), but here's some:

The evidence not only shows he was homosexual, but he also hated women; two different things. There are many gay men who do not 'hate' women. I do realize that 'woman hater' phrase may have been a term used for homosexual, but in Tumblety's case, it was more. When Littlechild stated that his feeling towards women were 'bitter in the extreme', it does not make sense that Littlechild meant he's really, really, really gay. Gay is gay. Note again what William Pinkerton stated.

[Pinkerton]:“People familiar with the history of the man always talked of him as a brute, and as brutal in his actions. He was known as a thorough woman-hater AND as a man who never associated with or mixed with women of any kind....”

Pinkerton’s point is that he thoroughly hated women and was brutal, which is different than merely being gay. Notice how he used “and” which means he is differentiating hating women with not associating with women (being gay). Remember, William Pinkerton had a close relationship with Scotland Yard and was even in London at the beginning of the murders. Chief Inspector Littlechild himself worked for Pinkerton after retirement. It would not be a surprise to me if Scotland Yard received a Tumblety background from Pinkerton. He knew him during the war.

Some have claimed the woman hater stuff originated with Charles Dunham, but Roger Palmer debunked this. Regardless, I wrote two articles on Charles Dunham, which made it clear he was not a pathological liar.



Note again what Littlechild stated about Tumblety (a window into Scotland Yard officials’ views).

[Chief Inspector Littlechild] “…but amongst the suspects, and to my mind a very likely one, was a Dr. T. (which sounds much like D.) He was an American quack named Tumblety and was at one time a frequent visitor to London and on these occasions constantly brought under the notice of police, there being a large dossier concerning him at Scotland Yard. Although a 'Sycopathia Sexualis' subject he was not known as a 'Sadist' (which the murderer unquestionably was) but his feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record.

Regardless if Littlechild mixed his stories accidentally or on purpose, the woman hater issue was clearly about Tumblety. Notice how Littlechild separates Sycopathis Sexualis [Charles Gilbert Chaddock. M.D., in his 1894 book Psychopathia Sexualis refers to it as “contrary sexual instinct”, in other words – being gay] from his woman-hater comment with a “BUT”. He is differentiating being gay with extreme woman hatred just as Stewart Evans has suggested. Also, Pinkerton’s comments clearly show Littlechild’s comments were not merely commenting upon normal homosexuality but on extreme women-hatred as Stewart Evans claims.


John, you made a comment about warning his young men to stay away from them. It was more than that. Note the New York World article dated December 5, 1888:

When asked about Dr. Tumblety's aversion to women, McGarry said [in 1882]: "He always disliked women very much. He used to say to me: 'Martin, no women for me.' He could not bear to have them near him. He thought all women were impostors, and he often said that all the trouble in this world was caused by women."


One last thing; note the following report:

The Evening World, December 3, 1888
Dr. Francis Twomblety, the eccentric American physician who was arrested in London suspected of the Whitechapel murders… Men who were well acquainted with Twomblety during his life in this city and in Brooklyn say that they did not know by what right he assumed the title M.D. Reasons which led some of them to believe that Twomblety is the fiend who so successfully eluded the London police are that the “Doctor” had an inveterate hatred for women and kept an anatomical museum in which portions of human bodies similar to those cut from the Whitechapel victims predominated. The London police are anxiously searching for samples of his handwriting to compare with that of “Jack the Ripper.”

Note what San Francisco's Chief of Police stated about information from New York:

The San Francisco Examiner, November 23, 1888
Talking of the affair yesterday [Chief Crowley] said: “There may be more in the arrest that was at first supposed. This man Tumblety is evidently a crank. His course with the bank here does not indicate that he was a man of good business instincts, and in New York his behavior was that of a man who had no liking for women.”

November 23 predates the Dunham interview and certainly comments on the New York woman hatred thing. Many have discounted the above New York World article because they believe the info came from Dunham, but Crowley knew something.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

Excuse me for asking.

You state that 'new information has come to light'.
May I enquire as to 'since when'? Before or after Trevor's article?

And as you are not at liberty to quote it in full, would you mind telling us 'when' this 'new information ' will be revealed, and where? ( the boads, Ripperologist for example?)

I suppose it's also wrong to ask who is the presenter in waiting of this 'new information'?

With many thanks

best wishes

Phil

[mklhawley]

Hi Phil,

I meant new info since John made his conclusion years ago, which includes Roger Palmer's article, my Dunham articles, and an event that occurred in 1875 that was emailed to me. It basically expresses his anger that women-folk are used to steal young lads away from who they're most likely created for; older men. It hints at why he hates women. That's it.

Sincerely,

Mike