Was Tumblety in Jail during the Kelly Murder?

[mklhawley]

Oh yes, the idea of an American possibly being the Ripper was well established, especially with the American Slouch Hat. If you look at the press reports, they were searching for a suspect with such a hat in early November 1888, and Tumblety even admitted he wore one. The fact that Tumblety's letters in his pocket claimed he was an MD, really gave them cause for concern, especially when the 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' theories were also well entrenched.

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. A bit of clarification - I was under the impression that we only have Tumblety's word for it that he was arrested on suspicion of the Ripper murders. You mention a London correspondent. Is he giving first hand knowledge or merely reporting what Tumblety told him?

As for him being a coward yes he did take chances but wasn't he all bluff?

c.d.

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. A bit of clarification - I was under the impression that we only have Tumblety's word for it that he was arrested on suspicion of the Ripper murders. You mention a London correspondent. Is he giving first hand knowledge or merely reporting what Tumblety told him?

As for him being a coward yes he did take chances but wasn't he all bluff?

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

No, Tumblety being arrested on suspicion BEFORE being arrested for gross indecency was first reported by the New York World's chief London correspondent Tracy Greaves on November 17, 1888. All competing daily papers, including the Associated Press, then reported it. This is what my article in RIP 139 was all about, which is titled, Tumblety 'Over the Wire'.

Assistant Commissioner Anderson reported it, as well, but he didn't plan on the public seeing it. Per the Associated Press (picked up by the Brooklyn Citizen), Assistant Commissioner Anderson wired to Superintendent Campbell: "Tumblety was arrested in London some weeks ago as the supposed Whitechapel murderer."

Some have suggested that Tumblety came up with this and told the London correspondent, but I demonstrated why this couldn't work. Least of which, how would the Assistant Commissioner get sucked into a ruse from Tumblety when he had reports from his own subordinates.

Sincerely,

Mike

[c.d.]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the clarification. Then what was the gross indecency arrest all about? Was it simply a way to question him further without fear of false arrest?

c.d.

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the clarification. Then what was the gross indecency arrest all about? Was it simply a way to question him further without fear of false arrest?

c.d.

Exactly, which is what the November 17 article inferred. As evidenced by Asst Commissioner Anderson personally getting involved and Littlechild remembering him after two decades, something had Scotland Yard interested in him (American with letters in his pocket stating he was an MD, slouch hat, reported hatred of women, etc). Were they entirely convinced he was JTR? I don't think so, but he was the most significant suspect in November 1888. If they were successful in putting him behind bars for gross indecency AND the murders suddenly stopped (which is why I believe they tried to prosecute), then they could tell the public they have their man. This also explains why they solicited information from North America just incase this scenario played out.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Natasha]

Hi All

Francis Tumblety returned to Liverpool in June of 1888, and once again found himself at odds with the police. He was arrested on November 7th, 1888 on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27th and November 2.Tumblety was then charged on suspicion of the Whitechapel murders on the 12th (suggested he was free to kill Kelly between the 7th and 12th). Tumblety was bailed on November 16th. A hearing was held on November 20th at the Old Bailey, and the trial postponed until December 10th. Tumblety then fled to France under the alias ‘Frank Townsend’ on the 24th, and from there took the steamer La Bretagne to New York City

It appears he wasn't charged, just arrested. Why would he hang around after Kelly's murder? If he was the ripper why not flee London and go back to New York, before he was charged? He had money, I don't see why he would stick around knowing for sure how much attention was drawn to the murders, especially as he was paranoid.

Was he definitely in London when the murders happened (before Kelly)?

Though it's said there was no mention of Tumblety in the UK papers, there was a UK newspaper article I saw which mentioned an American Dr, who was suspicious because he was asking about selling organs or something to that effect, the paper (I can't remember which one, will have to find it again) referred to the American as Dr T. I still don't believe Tumblety was the ripper despite what the article said. The killer went beyond stealing organs, and if Tumblety was indeed selling organs would it not make sense to obtain them from a healthy person, rather than women who may have had diseased organs?

Personally I don't think Tumblety was the ripper. he had an egotistical nature and his motivations were financially driven. I feel that Kelly's murder was organised. It appears to have been planned. The key was missing, the people that usually resided there, Barnett, friends etc were not there. The killer would need to know for certain that he would not be disturbed.
She had no money, and if people believe that her murder was due to a botched abortion, I doubt he would have performed one for free for starters. Secondly why go to the trouble of covering an abortion up? He was money motivated, no organs were taken from Kelly. I know the report says otherwise, but it was stated in a news article that all the pieces were indeed there, despite first impressions, and were sewed back into place at the mortuary.

Misogynist: He may have hated women according to what witness s say, but I don't think this necessarily warrants that he would go as far as to kill women. We know he was gay, so I think it pointless that he would solicit women in the guise of a customer for reasons I mentioned above. We also have to question his alleged marriage to a prostitute. He was gay wasn't he? If so then I doubt he would care what his 'wife' did. If he was married or pretended to be, this would serve as a good cover for his homosexual tendencies.

[mklhawley]

Hi All

Francis Tumblety returned to Liverpool in June of 1888, and once again found himself at odds with the police. He was arrested on November 7th, 1888 on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27th and November 2.Tumblety was then charged on suspicion of the Whitechapel murders on the 12th (suggested he was free to kill Kelly between the 7th and 12th). Tumblety was bailed on November 16th. A hearing was held on November 20th at the Old Bailey, and the trial postponed until December 10th. Tumblety then fled to France under the alias ‘Frank Townsend’ on the 24th, and from there took the steamer La Bretagne to New York City

Hi Natasha,

Before I handle your later misconceptions, were did you get this quoted statement, because it's wrong?

Tumblety was not arrested on suspicion on the 12th. He was definitely arrested for gross indecency and indecent assault on the 7th, and was arrested on suspicion prior to this. Why is this arrest not recorded in the court records? Because the court records only pertained to the gross indecency arrest, therefore, they should not in it.

Mike

[Natasha]

Hi Mike

On here:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/tumblety.html

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike

On here:

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/tumblety.html

Hi Natasha,

This synopsis is outdated. Much has been discovered since it's writing. The author of this is simply incorrect.

Mike

[Natasha]

Hi Mike

Ok, well I guess I'll have to catch up on all the new discoveries

[mklhawley]

Also, Tumblety had no intensions of leaving England, since he knew they had nothing on him for the Ripper murders. He would not have been afraid of this, especially since he could afford the best legal team. He left England because he knew they had him on the gross indecency charge.

With regards to Tumblety's hatred of women, he certainly did have an unusual hatred. I agree that the Kelly murder was organized, which is also why Tumblety would have been an excellent candidate. No one suggests his hatred of women was his sole motive (if he were the killer). You might want to read my 'Tumblety the Woman Hater' article.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Natasha]

Also, Tumblety had no intensions of leaving England, since he knew they had nothing on him for the Ripper murders. He would not have been afraid of this, especially since he could afford the best legal team. He left England because he knew they had him on the gross indecency charge.

With regards to Tumblety's hatred of women, he certainly did have an unusual hatred. I agree that the Kelly murder was organized, which is also why Tumblety would have been an excellent candidate. No one suggests his hatred of women was his sole motive (if he were the killer). You might want to read my 'Tumblety the Woman Hater' article.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks I will do

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Any ideas about why on Monday 19th November 1888 the Treasury [the Crown] requested a postponement of the Tumblety gross indecency case until the December Sessions?

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

Any ideas about why on Monday 19th November 1888 the Treasury [the Crown] requested a postponement of the Tumblety gross indecency case until the December Sessions?

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Happy New Year. Some ideas. I see it having absolutely nothing to do with the Ripper case. When Anderson solicited information from US chiefs of police around that same day, it was specific to the Ripper murders. The gross indecency case was a London thing. In view of this, maybe they wanted more time to tighten up the case. Tumblety was already in court a few times in England and Scotland Yard would have had record of this, even involving gross indecency. Each time, he slipped away.

Were you thinking it was because they couldn't find him?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Not at all.

Tumblety was in court that day.

Regards,

Simon