Tumblety and Ireland

[mklhawley]

Hi Lynn,
Thanks for your comment. Somewhere else on casebook.org, I read that a 16-year-old Irish girl Alice Carroll gave evidence for the prosecution at the Phoenix Park murders (1883), then disappeared without much trace.
Some theorists believe she wound up in Whitechapel and might even have been the real Mary Jane Kelly. Any theories on this yourself???

Hi all,

Isn't it intriguing that Sir Robert Anderson had his five week long vacation in Dublin, Ireland, in August 1882, which was clearly connected to the Phoenix Park murders. ...and then to go home in September, and find it broken into and plundered (Anderson admitted he kept sensitive official papers at home). ...and then to have Inspector Andrews as the inspector in charge of the break-in.

I have this on another thread, but it's amazing how there are so many coincidences:



Sincerely,

Mike

[lynn cates]

Revolver, but no Rubber Soul.

Hello Mike, Simon. Thanks. May be the wrong one.

Simon, John P. Hayes had a bit of a run in with Michael Davitt. According to Campbell, it was in France, just before the Parnell Commission met. Davitt was quite persuasive with a revolver.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn and Mike,

Tim Riordan mentions Tumblety visiting a nephew in Vallejo in late 1875, which ties in neatly with the date in the newspaper article.

However, by November 1888 the John Hayes in this Vallejo Chronicle article was "late", whereas at around this time John Patrick Hayes was still hunting up witnesses for The Times.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike. Philadelphia? Umm, one of Sir Ed's better sources (via Clipperton) was based there--John P. Hayes. There was a thread where Tumblety was thought related to this Hayes. Any information regarding that?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, I believe you're right and it focused on this article. My bet is Simon remembers:

Vallejo Chronicle (November 20, 1888)

VALLEJO STILL AHEAD.
A Former Resident Held for the Whitechapel Murder.

...Francis Tumblety, who, according to a cable dispatch, was arrested in London on suspicion of being concerned in the Whitechapel murders lived in Vallejo about thirteen years ago and was an uncle of the late John Hayes. He made John a present of a black horse with a white face that John used to travel about with very much. Many old residents remember him well and say that he answers exactly to the description given by the London papers of him, "about fifty-five years old, tall and rather heavy, and looks as if he painted his cheeks and dyed his hair. He has a heavy mustache and side whiskers."

Sincerely,

Mike

[lynn cates]

Hayes

Hello Mike. Philadelphia? Umm, one of Sir Ed's better sources (via Clipperton) was based there--John P. Hayes. There was a thread where Tumblety was thought related to this Hayes. Any information regarding that?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

top guns

Hello Siobhan. Well, it's possible. Some researchers--much better than myself--are looking into this.

Cheers.
LC

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,

I know how tempting it is to try to connect Tumblety with interesting people, causes or events, but I'm presently investigating a lead which suggests that he was not at any of the locations in Martin McGarry's itinerary at the requisite times.

Regards,

Simon

Keep me posted on how you get on!

Mike,

Fund raisers or rallies for Parnell's party were held around Ireland throughout 1883. He was presented with a cheque for £40,000 at the end of that year.

When, in December 1883, it was decided to present him with the magnificent tribute of £40,000 collected among his admirers and friends his only remark was: "Is it made payable to order and crossed?" No words of thanks or sign of gratitude.[4]

SOURCE: http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/Parnell1.php

[Simon Wood]

Hi Siobhan,

I know how tempting it is to try to connect Tumblety with interesting people, causes or events, but I'm presently investigating a lead which suggests that he was not at any of the locations in Martin McGarry's itinerary at the requisite times.

Regards,

Simon

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,

Caveat Emptor.

Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 28th January 1889 -

[ATTACH]14099[/ATTACH]

Regards,

Simon

Thanks again Simon. Had not seen that before.

What do you make of Mike's discovery about a connection between Philly, Tumblety, Parnell and possibly Dublin?
I'm impressed - probably because I'm determined to copperfasten or at least broaden T's connections with Ireland.

I thought O'Riordan's book was v good but was disappointed that there was nothing on T's early life "near Dublin" etc.
Would be great to unlock the key to that and the specific details of any other visits T made to the old sod.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Siobhan,

Caveat Emptor.

Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 28th January 1889 -



Regards,

Simon

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Livia,
Thanks for your help.
Already happened upon "Tumblety Talks" an amazing find by the author of dissertation. I notice that Stewart P Evans also does a piece here in dissertations "Slouch Hatted Yank" around the same New York World interview though he uses different quotes from the same article (incl. descriptions of the way T behaved during the Q&A session and also on his physical appearance) which are not included in "Tumblety Talks"....interesting the different angles each author used...

Mike,
You're a mineful of information! Has this stuff been in the public domain previously? If not, you deserve a gold star...

Simon,
Thanks also.

In the thread, Tumblety article timeline (by Mike) there is mention of yet another interview Tumblety did before the one in the New York World (29 Jan 1889). The earlier interview was published in the Brooklyn Eagle (28 Jan 1889) - just the day before!
Are they one and the same story? Should I take it the New York World just copied off the Brooklyn Eagle?
If not, is the Brooklyn Eagle interview anywhere on Casebook?
Sorry to be such a pain!

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The New York World Tumblety interview also appeared in the Boston Daily Globe, 29th January 1889.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

So, we see Tumblety hanging out in Philadelphia for three weeks. Note who else was in Phily in early 1883:

The Salt Lake Herald (March 24, 1883)
The Agitaters.
Chicago, 23. – James Mooney, Rev. Lawrence Walsh and John J. Hines, constituting the central council of the Land League of America, have issued a call for a general convention of that body,to be held at Philadelphia, April 25th . It is understood the object will be a dissolution of the body, with a view to a union with the new National Land League of Ireland. The call announces that Parnell and Egan will be present , and asks a full representation. Accompanying this is a call signed by Patrick Egan, of the National Land League of Ireland, James Mooney, president of the Irish-American Land League, and Michael Bond, chairman of the committee of seven. It is for the Irish-American national convention, to be held in Philadelphia April 26th, all Irish-American temperance, mutual benefit, charitable, literary, musical, military and patriotic organizations to be eligible for representation, on the basis of one delegate of a society that has between fifty and 100 member, and two for a larger membership. The object of the meeting will be to express sympathy with the suffering people of Ireland caused by iniquitous laws and bad harvest, and voice their horror at the course of England toward that country; to declare that exiled Irishmen will never cease to labor for the freedom of Ireland; and to blend into one organization all Irish societies in the United States and Canada, the new organization to be affiliated with the National League of Ireland of which Charles Stewart Parnell is president.

Tumblety was in Phily three weeks just prior to going to Ireland. Being at this convention would certainly give Tumblety the desire to visit Ireland, specifically Dublin.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Livia]

Hi Siobhan,

The article is available at newspaperarchives.com for a
small fee, and also in the Ripperologist No. 79, May 2007,
"Tumblety Talks" by Roger J Palmer.

For information on Tumblety's early life, see archive.org

http://archive.org/search.php?query=Tumblety

"Narrative of Dr. Tumblety: How He was Kidnapped During the American War, His Incarceration and ...etc (1872)" No subscription required, but many grains
of salt necessary.

Liv

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hello Siobhan.

"Now I wonder what was going on in Dublin in 1883 . . . "

Well, the Phoenix Park trials were underway along with the hangings of Brady and Kelly.

" . . . that would have been of interest to T...?"

That might depend upon his political affiliations.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
Thanks for your comment. Somewhere else on casebook.org, I read that a 16-year-old Irish girl Alice Carroll gave evidence for the prosecution at the Phoenix Park murders (1883), then disappeared without much trace.
Some theorists believe she wound up in Whitechapel and might even have been the real Mary Jane Kelly. Any theories on this yourself???