New Tumblety Articles

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Mike,
Just to clarify, the Melville mentioned above is not Melville McNaughten but a William Melville, low ranked Irish special branch based in London. Known as a Spymaster, W Melville investigated the Irish plot against the British crown as well as the Jack the Ripper case. According to one source, (see link below) he is supposed to have arrested Tumblety in Le Harve but the French authorities forced him to let the slippery one go.
A very interesting link here on Casebook which might give you more leads on the dynamite plots, Parnell, Tumblety, JtR and what really happened in Le Harve.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4924/13690.html

Relevant info is about half way down the page. Maybe you already have this?

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Thanks Siobhan,

By the way, is your CSI Scunthorpe material going well?

Mike

Hi Mike,
I've searched one online version of the first Tumblety book and couldn't find reference to Parnell. It was typed up by Harvard students so don't know if it was full version of text. It's not the version I printed previously which seems to have disappeared off the net. Though both Google and Amazon are now selling hard copies of it in soft copy! Tumblety did at least mention the Irish probem or Irish cause (in case my mind is playing tricks on me about Parnell) in the one I printed. Maybe you will have better luck searching on the net.
I did find an interesting link http://www.kerrymuseum.ie/forum_1.html mentioning a spymaster called Melville... Parnell...Tumblety (from the Kerry museum in Ireland) and though the link between the 3 in the article is a bit nebulous, it may give you a lead on what you're looking for.

CSI Scunthorpe hasn't hit our screens yet on this side of Atlantic! Will keep you posted though.

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,
I wouldn't get over excited about Tumblety's views on Parnell. From an historian's point of view, (and from what I remember) his few comments seemed "mysty-eyed" and didn't have the inside track on what was really going on in Ireland at the time.
Many Irish-Americans have given money over the centuries to what was known as the "Irish cause" never really understanding the actual cause they were investing in. I hazard a guess that Tumblety may have fallen into this category.
If you can't find his "books" in pdf format online, I will try to root them out on the net. I actually printed off a copy of his first one a few years back (very long) but couldn't read it in detail because it was so narcisistic and, above all, boring!
I read the thread you mentioned above previously. Yes, I agree up to a point. You are much more scientifc in your investigation/ deliberation on T than this cookie...

Thanks Siobhan,

By the way, is your CSI Scunthorpe material going well?

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,
I would be interested in his comments on Parnell, especially since Tumblety was an Irish sympathizer. Compulsive lying is one of the traits of an aggressive narcissist.

Speaking of aggressive narcissists - Curious, here's a thread on aggressive narcissism: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4561

Sincerely,
Mike

Hi Mike,
I wouldn't get over excited about Tumblety's views on Parnell. From an historian's point of view, (and from what I remember) his few comments seemed "mysty-eyed" and didn't have the inside track on what was really going on in Ireland at the time.
Many Irish-Americans have given money over the centuries to what was known as the "Irish cause" never really understanding the actual cause they were investing in. I hazard a guess that Tumblety may have fallen into this category.
If you can't find his "books" in pdf format online, I will try to root them out on the net. I actually printed off a copy of his first one a few years back (very long) but couldn't read it in detail because it was so narcisistic and, above all, boring!
I read the thread you mentioned above previously. Yes, I agree up to a point. You are much more scientifc in your investigation/ deliberation on T than this cookie...

[mklhawley]

Hi Siobhan,
I would be interested in his comments on Parnell, especially since Tumblety was an Irish sympathizer. Compulsive lying is one of the traits of an aggressive narcissist.

Speaking of aggressive narcissists - Curious, here's a thread on aggressive narcissism: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4561

Sincerely,
Mike

[curious]

Hi Curious,
Can I see Tumblety being the Ripper? Considering Scotland Yard took him seriously, Tumblety himself admitted he was in the East End streets at the time of the murders, and the fact that the murders stopped once he left the country; yes. Can I see others? Yes. Another suspect I am very curious about is Druitt thanks to Jonathan Hainesworth’s arguments. I just see people discounting Tumblety too quickly. Some of the arguments why people cannot see Tumblety being the Ripper (too flamboyant, wanted to be in the lime light) fail to take into account the dual life he led. Some arguments against him (too gay, no history of violence, no evidence of him doing anything afterwards) are because people see JTR as a sado-sexual killer. No one really knows who JTR was, so he may not have been sado-sexual. I see JTR as an aggressive narcissist, which Tumblety fits to a T.

Sincerely,
Mike

very interesting post, Mike. Thanks. I'm intrigued that you find Druitt a real possibility. I never have but still have so much to learn. I will have to investigate him a bit.

Tumblety is one of my favorite suspects because it does appear Scotland Yard took him seriously, he was there and he was so incredibly strange.

The major problem I have is that of his height as compared to the height of men last seen with the women.

I'll have to check into what it means when someone is "an aggressive narcissist."

Thanks,

curious

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Curious,

There are two issues specific to Tumblety. ‘Was he Jack the Ripper’ and ‘did Scotland Yard consider him a serious JTR suspect?’ What I am convinced of is that Scotland Yard considered him a serious JTR suspect. I believe the only viable argument against the suspect issue is the Parnell conspiracy. Inspector Andrews came over to Canada EITHER because of covertly propagating the Parnell conspiracy OR because of investigating Francis Tumblety. ...Sincerely,
Mike

Hi Mike,
You probably already know this ...but Tumblety mentions Parnell in passing (no great detail) in the books that he self-published as far as I know. The books are available online and you could do a "ctrl f" once you open the pdf documents to find the whereabouts of his references to Parnell - that's if you haven't already done this. Mind you, the dates and facts in his books have to be taken with a grain of salt as Tumblety was a compulsive liar/ the slippery-est of all fish...

[mklhawley]

I'd like to be kept updated on the book, as well. Can't help being curious though Mike -- can you actually see Tumblety being the Ripper?

curious

Hi Curious,

There are two issues specific to Tumblety. ‘Was he Jack the Ripper’ and ‘did Scotland Yard consider him a serious JTR suspect?’ What I am convinced of is that Scotland Yard considered him a serious JTR suspect. I believe the only viable argument against the suspect issue is the Parnell conspiracy. Inspector Andrews came over to Canada EITHER because of covertly propagating the Parnell conspiracy OR because of investigating Francis Tumblety. To embrace the Parnell conspiracy argument we have to believe Scotland Yard headquarters mandated all of their subordinates to violate British law; an act counter to their job description –law enforcement. Roger Palmer’s three part article certainly created cracks in the Parnell argument and we have lots to support him making the trip because of Tumblety. Just because Anderson did not admit it publically does not mean it didn’t happen. Anderson had a history of being elusive on sensitive issues. It was his job.
Can I see Tumblety being the Ripper? Considering Scotland Yard took him seriously, Tumblety himself admitted he was in the East End streets at the time of the murders, and the fact that the murders stopped once he left the country; yes. Can I see others? Yes. Another suspect I am very curious about is Druitt thanks to Jonathan Hainesworth’s arguments. I just see people discounting Tumblety too quickly. Some of the arguments why people cannot see Tumblety being the Ripper (too flamboyant, wanted to be in the lime light) fail to take into account the dual life he led. Some arguments against him (too gay, no history of violence, no evidence of him doing anything afterwards) are because people see JTR as a sado-sexual killer. No one really knows who JTR was, so he may not have been sado-sexual. I see JTR as an aggressive narcissist, which Tumblety fits to a T.

It's just my thoughts.

Sincerely,
Mike

[curious]

Hi Siobhan,

Nothing directly from Riordan, although I believe the Liverpool info is in his book. ...and yes on the book. I'll keep you updated if you're interested.

Mike

I'd like to be kept updated on the book, as well. Can't help being curious though Mike -- can you actually see Tumblety being the Ripper?

curious

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,

Nothing directly from Riordan, although I believe the Liverpool info is in his book. ...and yes on the book. I'll keep you updated if you're interested.

Mike

Yes, keep me posted.
Of course, you know you have the bones of a good chapter with the info on Tumblety's "work" activities in Whitechapel in the post above... with more detail and background etc You would also have a chapter from the alchemy piece you had in Ripper magazine. Is that how you're going with it?

[mklhawley]

Amazing material Mike!
Well worth reading.
Was any of the above stuff in O'Riordan's book as I only read bits of it?
Are you writing a book? Would definitely read it.

Hi Siobhan,

Nothing directly from Riordan, although I believe the Liverpool info is in his book. ...and yes on the book. I'll keep you updated if you're interested.

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobhan,

Even though the East End was poor, there was still lots of business going on, including herb stores. A ripperologist recently sent me a copy of list of herb stores operating in the East End in 1887, and the list is well over 20. Another example is the Bridgeport News of 8 October 1888, which reported an herb shop in the Whitechapel district: …, and who now keeps an herb shop in the Whitechapel district, …

Sincerely,

Mike

Amazing material Mike!
Well worth reading.
Was any of the above stuff in O'Riordan's book as I only read bits of it?
Are you writing a book? Would definitely read it.

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,
Re: Tumblety jumping bail in the article you mentioned. Yes, and Scotland Yard knew where his "usual haunts" were which may indicate he was "known to the police" for more than just homosexual acts/ aggessive behaviour and as a suspect in the JtR killings. Would he have tried to peddle his phoney cures in such a poor area of London? I guess there wouldn't have been a market for the stuff in Whitechapel.
Do you know? Also, it's a pity the boys in blue didn't list his usual haunts for us. That would have been a great help!

Hi Siobhan,

Even though the East End was poor, there was still lots of business going on, including herb stores. A ripperologist recently sent me a copy of list of herb stores operating in the East End in 1887, and the list is well over 20. Another example is the Bridgeport News of 8 October 1888, which reported an herb shop in the Whitechapel district: …, and who now keeps an herb shop in the Whitechapel district, …


Did Tumblety have an herb shop in the Whitechapel District?


We do know he set up shop in England, because of his brush with the Liverpool authorities in 1875. Tumblety was charged with manslaughter in a case dealing with a customer Liverpool resident named Aspinall. Living in Liverpool in his early days of visiting England is quite logical, since this was his port of entry from the U.S.

There is evidence he set up shop in London. In the Evening Star (Washington, D.C.), November 27, 1888, following was reported:

A few years ago the pimple-banishing enterprise was moved to London, where the doctor for a time is said to have made money. It was his queer method of spending his money which first attracted the Scotland Yard detectives to him, and after a slight investigation he was arrested, the idea being that if he were not the Whitechapel fiend, he is a dangerous character, and is not entitled to his liberty.

The following came from the New York World, November 19, 1888: During the past few years Twomblety has opened a branch office in London and has been making regular trips across the ocean at intervals of five or six months.

Did he set up shop in the West End or East End of London? The evidence states nothing about the West End. We do know Tumblety played in the West End, since his gross indecency charges come out of that area. Maybe it was a case of never working where you play, especially when his type of play hurt his business. The evidence certainly does state the East End. Notice what it says in the Bucks County Gazette, December 13, 1888:

His "herb doctoring" finally became unprofitable in America; so he went to London, located near the Whitechapel road and for a while did a big business. His oddity of manner, dress and speech soon made him notorious as the "American doctor"; but he enjoyed notoriety and turned it into money, till the Whitechapel horrors caused a general overhauling of suspicious characters. Interestingly, this article suggests he had an herb store on the East End AT THE TIME OF THE MURDERS.


Here’s what it says in the Bridgeport News of 8 October 1888: An American who used to live in New York, and who now keeps an herb shop in the Whitechapel district, was visited by a detective at his place this week.

This conforms quite nicely with the Bucks County Gazette article. In the St. Louis Post Dispatch, October 7, 1888, the article is titled: An Herb Doctor Under Suspicion . Keep in mind, these last two articles were over one month earlier than any US article connecting Tumblety to the Whitechapel murders.

Of the twenty or more herb stores of 1887, there were a couple of store owners from America, but none from New York. The only herb store owner from New York was Francis Tumblety.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Mike,
Re: Tumblety jumping bail in the article you mentioned. Yes, and Scotland Yard knew where his "usual haunts" were which may indicate he was "known to the police" for more than just homosexual acts/ aggessive behaviour and as a suspect in the JtR killings. Would he have tried to peddle his phoney cures in such a poor area of London? I guess there wouldn't have been a market for the stuff in Whitechapel.
Do you know? Also, it's a pity the boys in blue didn't list his usual haunts for us. That would have been a great help!

[Heinrich]

....
The New York Tribune (Dec 4, 1888) reported the bail to be 500 pounds, while most other US newspapers reported $1,500. According to Joe Chetcuti and Tim Riordan, the bail was 300 pounds, which means the US papers reporting $1,500 was more accurate than the New York Tribune's report.

Yes, $1,434 is close enough to $1,500.