Tumblety and Pinkerton

[Natalie Severn]

yrs. 1887/8 Supt.Thomson of the Metropolitan Police

Well Stewart ,there were certainly some strange goings on regarding some superintendents in the met in 1887/8!

Martha Thomson ,who I wrote about the other day ,claimed she had spent
"five most exciting months in America resulting in the crushing of Parnell.......
Mrs Thomson had ofcourse protested about being named by Robert Anderson in the February 1910 edition of Blackwoods , but her protest had fallen on deaf ears.In fact the Foreign Office said they had never heard of her or her husband ---but I will let James Monro speak for himself about the arrangement :

from letter by James Monro in Darjeeling writing to his son:

This was the Jubilee Year.........Millen was closely supervised .
He came to Europe,stayed in Paris for a short time,and then proceeded to Boulogne......he remained there for some time .......and came to be friendly with an elderly man who had taken up quarters there with his wife,and who was suffering from gout.This interesting invalid was Supt.Thomson of the Metropolitan Police,whom I had deputed for the purpose.He carried out his instructions admirably and so did his wife......

Have just read your clipping and I dont disagree. Tumblety was a suspect---is still a suspect

[Stewart P Evans]

Special department

Well Stewart ,there were certainly some strange goings on regarding some superintendents in the met in 1887/8!
Martha Thomson ,who I wrote about the other day ,claimed she had spent
"five most exciting months in America resulting in the crushing of Parnell.......
Mrs Thomson had ofcourse protested about being named by Robert Anderson in the February 1910 edition of Blackwoods , but her protest had fallen on deaf ears.In fact the Foreign Office said they had never heard of her or her husband ---but I will let James Monro speak for himself about the arrangement :
from letter by James Monro in Darjeeling writing to his son:
This was the Jubilee Year.........Millen was closely supervised .
He came to Europe,stayed in Paris for a short time,and then proceeded to Boulogne......he remained there for some time .......and came to be friendly with an elderly man who had taken up quarters there with his wife,and who was suffering from gout.This interesting invalid was Supt.Thomson of the Metropolitan Police,whom I had deputed for the purpose.He carried out his instructions admirably and so did his wife......
Have just read your clipping and I dont disagree. Tumblety was a suspect---is still a suspect

You seem to be quoting extensively from works by Christy Campbell and Bernard Porter, all of which I have and have read. If you examine Porter you will see that even he is baffled by the origins of the Special department. However, it isn't as complicated as it first appears, the complications being mainly 'technical' and to do with naming and financing - the officers remained pretty consistent from 1883 onwards and, of course, it was officially created in 1883 - the date given on the centenary medallion. But why apply your 'strange goings on' to Inspector Andrews who wasn't even Special Branch?

[Stewart P Evans]

Andrews

I have no problem at all with anyone rejecting Tumblety as 'Jack the Ripper' - he hasn't been proven to be and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However some people seem to be obsessed with rejecting him in any shape or form and become very excited and aggressive in doing so.

The fact that Andrews was stated to have made enquiries regarding Tumblety, who had estreated his bail in London, in North America doesn't, as I have said, make the man 'Jack the Ripper'. To state that Home Secretary Matthews is a liar, Chief Commissioner Monro is a liar, and Assistant Commissioner Anderson is a liar - all based on Irish Nationalist propaganda inspired newspaper reports is a bit over the top. It's a liar too much for me.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

Regarding your old department, I was speaking figuratively.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Well Stewart,in some ways I hope you are right and that Inspector Andrews wore both his Ripper and Barnet hats while in Canada.I would hate to think he took off to do a simple "escort" job with Barnet and to have a bit of a "holiday" in Toronto at the height of the Ripper scare!
Best Wishes,
Norma

[Stewart P Evans]

Sources

Well Stewart,in some ways I hope you are right and that Inspector Andrews wore both his Ripper and Barnet hats while in Canada.I would hate to think he took off to do a simple "escort" job with Barnet and to have a bit of a "holiday" in Toronto at the height of the Ripper scare!
Best Wishes,
Norma

I have given the sources and stated the case for the opinion I hold. I can do no more than that. Obviously if any contrary evidence emerged that might change my opinion then I would consider that. As regards the Monro 'letter from Darjeeling' quoted above, it is not a letter it is 95 page memoir by Monro - I have a full copy of it.

[Natalie Severn]

I have given the sources and stated the case for the opinion I hold. I can do no more than that. Obviously if any contrary evidence emerged that might change my opinion then I would consider that. As regards the Monro 'letter from Darjeeling' quoted above, it is not a letter it is 95 page memoir by Monro - I have a full copy of it.

95 page memoir! Thats amazing.I thought it was just from a couple pages or so of A5.
Well Stewart you surely have far more access to these sources than most of us---and thankyou for sharing the fresh information you posted today,
Best
Norma

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

Whoop de doo! Yet another document nobody else has seen. Is a pattern forming here?

But moving swiftly on . . .

What exactly is your problem with the Home Secretary, Chief Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner all having been economical with the truth?

It probably wasn't the first time in history, and it certainly wouldn't be the last.

Regards,

Simon

[Stewart P Evans]

Posted

95 page memoir! Thats amazing.I thought it was just from a couple pages or so of A5.
Well Stewart you surely have far more access to these sources than most of us---and thankyou for sharing the fresh information you posted today,
Best
Norma

I think I have posted it before. The memoir was that discovered by Keith Skinner back in the 1980s, it's mentioned in the A-Z - Christy Campbell incorrectly credits it to Paul Beggs [sic] and Martin Fido.

[Natalie Severn]

I think I have posted it before. The memoir was that discovered by Keith Skinner back in the 1980s, it's mentioned in the A-Z - Christy Campbell incorrectly credits it to Paul Beggs [sic] and Martin Fido.

Ah! That one,I remember now! Yes he does and I noticed something only today mentioning Paul Begg in Fenian Fire! Poor old Keith,he must have been a bit put out at that!

[Stewart P Evans]

Twisted

Hi Stewart,
Whoop de doo! Yet another document nobody else has seen. Is a pattern forming here?
But moving swiftly on . . .
What exactly is your problem with the Home Secretary, Chief Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner all having been economical with the truth?
It probably wasn't the first time in history, and it certainly wouldn't be the last.
Regards,
Simon

It's not a document that 'nobody else has seen' - what on earth are you suggesting???

I have no problem with that - other than the fact that there is no evidence of it in this case. Your views are twisted by your theories.

[Stewart P Evans]

Nasty

Hi Stewart,
Whoop de doo! Yet another document nobody else has seen. Is a pattern forming here?
...
Simon

And I suggest that you think twice before you start making any nasty little insinuations or suggestions. Don't ever expect any co-operation from me again.

[Stewart P Evans]

With That

And with that I shall exit these boards - the aggressive and obnoxious posters can post to themselves.

[mklhawley]

And we have Guy B.H. Logan, an author with several police contacts, writing of Andrews' trip to America 'in search of the Whitechapel fiend' in his book Masters of Crime -

[ATTACH]10657[/ATTACH]

I really don't know what the problem is, it doesn't make Tumblety the Ripper, but some can't even accept that he was a suspect.

Simon,

This was published in 1925, so it's not so new. It is interesting why no one recognized it until Stewart found it. Bias can be so blinding. Notice how Logan states, "I know", and notice how he states "the nature of which was never disclosed". This is exactly what I was trying to say.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

I covered this in Ripperologist 106 [September 2009]–

"In his 1928 book Masters of Crime, Guy Bertie Harris Logan, an English journalist and crime writer who was 19 years old at the time of the Whitechapel murders, wrote: 'The murders ceased, I think, with the Millers Court one, and I am the more disposed to this view because, though the fact was kept a close secret at the time, I know that one of Scotland Yard’s best men, Inspector Andrews, was sent specially to America in December 1888 in search of the Whitechapel fiend on the strength of important information, the nature of which was never disclosed. Nothing, however, came of it, and the Inspector’s mission was a failure.'"

Regards,

Simon