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  • Tumblety & Colonel Dunham

    Wolf V., I will be the death of you, but Dr. T is so much fun to work on I could not help myself. I promise I will not push his JTR suspect status.

    I would like to revisit the Colonel Dunham interview in The New York World on Dec 1, 1888. It clearly convinced the public of two things about Francis Tumblety in 1888, his extreme hatred of woman and him having a collection of uterus specimens. Both made Tumblety a serious JTR suspect in the eyes of many people. Later research revealed that Colonel Dunham had a few things in common with Francis Tumblety; he was a liar, cheat, and scam artist. It was now a convincing position that not only Tumblety being a woman-hater and having a collection of uterus specimens was made up but also that the Washington D.C. meeting most likely did not take place. To top it off, the deceptive Dunham received a little pocket money for the interview and he also received some welcomed national attention (which points directly to motive for crafting such a tale).

    Carman Cumming is the author of Devil’s game: the Civil War Intrigues of Charles A. Dunham, the same Dunham that claimed to have met with Francis Tumblety in Washington D.C. According to Cumming, “Colonel” Dunham (Sandford Conover, George Margrave, and seven other alter egos) was “a genius in the black arts of false information and dirty tricks”. He was a chameleon who was a master at writing and speaking. Time and time again, acquaintances considered him “not only credible but convincing”. He was not entirely full of lies, though. According to Cumming, the effectiveness of Dunham’s deceptions was because he mixed them with truths and actual events. Cumming states, “…he was careful to qualify his observations, to strengthen his credibility…about things that could be checked…”

    Did Dunham actually meet with Francis Tumblety in Washington D.C.?

    According to Cumming, when the Civil War broke out in 1861, Dunham actually attempted to raise a New York regiment, named the Cameron Legion, and it was officially listed as a New York regiment. He then went to Washington D.C. with this information in order to procure a regiment, and he actually received a War Department endorsement (he even met with the President!). Nothing came of it, but he certainly introduced himself as “Colonel” Dunham after this time. This Washington visit was at the time of the Union’s July 21, 1861, defeat at Bull Run. According to The New World December 1888 Tumblety interview, he claims to have met Tumblety in Washington just after the Bull Run incident, which conforms to his Washington visit. According to Joe Chetcuti, “Tim [Riordan] once located a document in the British National Archives that was written in the penmanship of Dr. Tumblety's attorney. The document was a petition presented to the British Joint Claims Commission, and it declared that Tumblety's official residency in Washington DC commenced on April 13, 1861.”

    My contention is that Dunham actually did meet with Tumblety in the summer of 1861. Not only were both parties in Washington at this time but it also matches Dunham’s deceptive MO of mixing lies with truths. He would not have taken the chance of Tumblety later retorting with a convincing alibi of never meeting him. It makes no sense to me that Dunham would bring attention to himself with a nationally publicized interview by lying about “things that could be checked”. Also, Francis Tumblety later published, A Sketch of the Life of Francis Tumblety, in 1893 for the sole purpose of clearing his name. In it, he never mentions the Colonel Dunham interview, an interview that dealt a deathblow to Tumblety’s already hurting reputation. If Tumblety and Dunham never met, wouldn’t it make sense for Tumblety to point that out?

    Did Dunham make up the woman-hater feelings about Francis Tumblety?

    The New York World article dated November 26, 1888, that Chris Scott posted comments upon Tumblety being a known woman hater, and this article PREDATES The New York World article interview with Colonel Dunham on December 1, 1888. In the November 26 article, the reporter asks a Tumblety acquaintance, William Carr, “"Did you ever hear that he had an aversion to women?" The interviewer must have known about this incriminating claim and was attempting to confirm it with Carr. Also, this conforms to ex-Chief Inspector Littlechild’s 1913 comments that Tumblety's "feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record." Because of these facts, I am confident Dunham did not make up Tumblety’s hatred of women, but instead used this “already known” information to add credibility to his deceptive story.

    Did Dunham make up the uterus collection story?

    It’s my belief that this part of the story could not be checked up on, so Dunham most likely practiced the black art of false information. It seems obvious he was aware of Colonel Hughes-Hallett’s interview a few months earlier with The New York World, in which he makes a connection between Jack the Ripper and collecting uterus specimens.

    Sincerely,

    Mike
    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

  • #2
    I'm sorry, my post did not make the name of Cumming's book clear. It is

    Devil’s game: the Civil War Intrigues of Charles A. Dunham
    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Also, according to Cummings, many scholars believe there is evidence that Colonel Dunham's deceptive practices (at least some of them) were known to officials. Cummings' book is quite an interesting read.

      Sincerely,

      Mike
      The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
      http://www.michaelLhawley.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Mike.

        Dunham was in Washington, as you say, just after the battle of Bull Run (July 21, 1861) but there is no evidence proving that Tumblety was there at that time and plenty of evidence which suggests that he was in New York until November, 1861.

        According to Joe Chetcuti, “Tim [Riordan] once located a document in the British National Archives that was written in the penmanship of Dr. Tumblety's attorney. The document was a petition presented to the British Joint Claims Commission, and it declared that Tumblety's official residency in Washington DC commenced on April 13, 1861.”
        Okay, but what does Tim actually say about this in his excellent book Prince of Quacks?

        An important question for many aspects of Tumblety’s later history is how long and when he was in New York City and when he moved to Washington. In his 1872 memorial to the Joint High Claims Commission, Tumblety states that he moved to Washington in April, 1861, back to New York in May 1863 and to St. Louis in 1865. There is no evidence that places Tumblety in Washington earlier than November 1861. This does not mean that he could not have made trips there but it suggests that he was not living there during this time. On the other hand, a number of indications place Tumblety in New York during most of 1861.
        Prince of Quacks pages 75 -76.

        Tim then goes on to list this very convincing evidence tending to prove Tumblety was in New York until November. Therefore your statement that “both parties [were] in Washington at this time,” is, at best, not proven, at worst, completely false.

        He would not have taken the chance of Tumblety later retorting with a convincing alibi of never meeting him. It makes no sense to me that Dunham would bring attention to himself with a nationally publicized interview by lying about “things that could be checked”.
        Dunham did much worse in his time and was caught and sent to jail for it. Attempting to blackmail the President of the United States by suggesting he was involved in the plot to assassinate Abraham Lincoln, which Dunham couldn’t prove, easily and quickly springs to mind. Dunham wasn’t the cautious, calculating manipulator you make him out to be.

        Also, Francis Tumblety later published, A Sketch of the Life of Francis Tumblety, in 1893 for the sole purpose of clearing his name. In it, he never mentions the Colonel Dunham interview, an interview that dealt a deathblow to Tumblety’s already hurting reputation. If Tumblety and Dunham never met, wouldn’t it make sense for Tumblety to point that out?
        Once more, the argumentum ad ignorantiam logical fallacy. You are suggesting that since Tumblety never denied meeting Dunham that this should be seen as evidence that he did meet Dunham.

        Did Dunham make up the woman-hater feelings about Francis Tumblety?
        The New York World article dated November 26, 1888, that Chris Scott posted comments upon Tumblety being a known woman hater, and this article PREDATES The New York World article interview with Colonel Dunham on December 1, 1888.
        I have already pointed out to you that extreme caution should be used when dealing with the 26th of November World article because it contains an interview with a non existent person – “Col. James L. Sothern” – of whom no record has been found. I also pointed out that it is likely that the article was written by Dunham himself (notice the similarities between the introduction of the fictitious Sothern and Dunham in the two World articles: “Col. James L. Sothern, of Chicago, the well known lawyer,” and “Colonel C. A. Dunham, a well-known lawyer who lives near Fairview, N.J.”).

        For reasons only you can explain, you have decided to a) ignore evidence presented in the past by me that “woman hater” is a term used at the time of the murders to describe homosexuals and doesn’t mean that Tumblety literally hated women and wanted to kill them; and b) ignore the evidence of fraud and to continually use the 26 November article, probably written by Dunham, to prove your belief that Dunham didn’t “make up the woman-hater feelings [of] Francis Tumblety.” In other words, you are claiming that Dunham was right because an earlier article probably written by Dunham supports Dunham. This twisted logic and out and out deception seems par for the course with Tumblety supporters, I’m afraid.

        Wolf.

        Comment


        • #5
          Foiled again! Wolf, you have forgotten more than I will ever know, but I'm so lovin this stuff.

          Thanks again

          Mike
          The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
          http://www.michaelLhawley.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Wolf,
            Are you quite sure that the words "woman hater" meant homosexual?
            My understanding is that a "misogynist" means a person who hates women and that this was so in Victorian times too.In fact in past times a homosexual was mostly termed a "sodomite".
            Another thing is that for centuries,in the uk anyway,the homosexual community aligned itself with the world of brothels and bawds,which suggests a certain camaraderie with those of the female sex,rather than a hatred of them.
            I am not familiar at all with how the phrase "woman hater" was used in Canada or the USA which may have been entirely different from over here.
            Best
            Norma
            Last edited by Natalie Severn; 03-02-2010, 02:18 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Natalie.

              I posted this once before on another thread (in regards to something you had posted, I think) so I'll re post it here.

              "The term 'woman hater' means a homosexual; it does not mean that Tumblety, or anyone else described with the term, actually, literally, hated women and wanted to kill them. The term is fairly old. For example there is a broadsheet ballad dated 1707 titled 'The Women-Hater’s Lamentation' which tells of the arrest in London of a group of gay men (three or four of whom killed themselves in prison over the disgrace of being caught). The term lasted into the twentieth century as exampled by a report in the Washington Post dated 1 July, 1906, describing the murder of Archibald Wakely in London. Wakely was a wealthy artist and homosexual who was described as '…about forty, and unmarried. In fact, he was known as a woman hater, and preferred the society of young men.'"

              As you can see, the term was used for many years in England. There are also examples of it being used specifically to describe Tumblety as a homosexual as well.

              Wolf.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Wolf,
                The ballad is a fine example here.But I had not noted this posting previously-and its certainly helpful.
                Best
                Norma

                Comment


                • #9
                  Vernacular

                  Hi Nats,

                  To add to what Wolf posted, I had always assumed that "woman hater" was just one of those quaint Victorian ways round spelling something out - akin to today's use of "dodger". A "soap dodger", for example, is a slang expression for someone who doesn't wash much and pongs a bit. A "salad dodger", someone who evidently enjoys fast food to excess, and so on.

                  Thus, today's gay man could be described in the vernacular as a "fanny dodger" (British meaning). It wouldn't imply that he hates women, wants to hurt them physically, or even avoids their company. It would just mean that he would thoroughly dislike the thought of getting down and dirty with anyone of the female persuasion.

                  When someone is thought to be bisexual and promiscuous, a common expression to describe it would be "anything with a pulse". What they would have said in Tumblety's day goodness alone knows. But "woman hater" to me merely suggests that our Dr T was believed to be a shirt lifter - not a skirt chaser, and not both.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  Last edited by caz; 03-22-2010, 06:58 PM.
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi All,

                    I have just been catching up with the other thread mentioned by Wolf, and thought the following deserved another airing here (with my own emphasis on certain observations by Pinkerton and Hammond that would have no place in today’s more enlightened world):

                    Originally posted by Wolf Vanderlinden View Post
                    …Homosexuality was little understood at the time and a “hatred for women” was as good an explanation as any to the Victorian layman…

                    …The Victorian attitude of Tumblety as an homosexual, and therefore a viable Whitechapel Murder suspect, is summed up in the interview with William Pinkerton found in the Chicago Inter Ocean, 20 November, 1888:

                    “And what did people who came in contact with the doctor think of his general character?”
                    “People familiar with the history of the man always talked of him as a brute, and as brutal in his actions. He was known as a thorough woman-hater and as a man who never associated with or mixed with women of any kind….”
                    “And what do you think are the probabilities of his being the man who committed the Whitechapel murders – murders committed, apparently, without any object in view? Do you consider that the Doctor was insane?”
                    “Yes, I do. I think a man guilty of such practices as those I have referred to (homosexuality) must be insane; and Dr. Hammond – Surgeon General Hammond – some time ago, when asked as to whether or not he thought that the Whitechapel murderer was an insane man, said that when the murderer of those women was discovered he would undoubtedly be found to be a woman-hater and a man guilty of the same practices (homosexuality) which I have described, and Twombley, or Tumblety, as being guilty of, and that such men were crazy and as likely as not to murder women.”

                    Wolf.
                    I took the above quotes from Wolf's post here:



                    We know from Littlechild that Tumblety was among the Whitechapel murder suspects, but we can only guess why. If any evidence had ever connected him to the victims beyond his demonstrably homosexual tendencies (= ‘crazy and as likely as not to murder women’), Littlechild either didn’t know about it or wasn’t telling, and instead offered Sims a personal view in support of his own ‘very likely’ conclusion that is strikingly, and worryingly similar to those of Pinkerton and (reportedly) Hammond from 1888.

                    Marrying the ideas of these three Victorian gentlemen together, the suggestion appears to be that only a man harbouring extreme and irrational (= insane) feelings of hatred and bitterness towards the female sex could possibly be persuaded against his natural (= heterosexual) urges to seek out exclusively male company, and to satisfy all his sexual/emotional needs that way.

                    What was unusual and unwise in that day and age, if not quite insane, was for a gay man to be careless about hiding his proclivities from those who would see them as brutal, unnatural, depraved and indicative of something infinitely worse - thus making a five-course carvery meal out of his usual diet of sausage and two veg.

                    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                    Given that Tumblety hated all women and seem to have strong sexual urges, it isn't unreasonable to see that he became a homosexual.

                    That description by Littlechild seems key to understanding the kind of man Tumblety was…

                    …It is interesting to note that the charges against him at the time of Whitechapel murders include "force" and "arms". Are these not the MO of the Ripper? If he could manhandle men, he would have no trouble with forty year old women. Presumably, he was wielding a knife for his gentlemen victims, as well, forcing them to meet his needs. These confirmed contemporary actions are very telling.
                    I must say, I wasn’t expecting to see this sort of comment repeated in 2010. Just in case Chadwick is not alone, nobody ever ‘became’ homosexual - or mentally ill and homicidal for that matter - because they hated women or loved sex. It may still have seemed a reasonable view a hundred years ago, but not now.

                    Understanding the kind of man Tumblety was is one thing (whether we use a Victorian understanding as our guide or treat it with caution); knowing how he earned his suspect status would be quite another. Did he become a ripper suspect - and a 'very likely' one in certain eyes - because of the 'kind' of man he was understood to be, or because of something much more specific, which suggested to Littlechild his likely involvement in the murders?

                    Is there anything evident from this suspect's past that would support a claim made today that he very likely hated women to the extent of murdering and mutilating them?

                    Also, Stewart has gone to some trouble to point out why ‘force and arms’ in Tumblety’s case does not necessarily mean that he forced himself on any of the young men named in the charges. If the offending acts were consensual, and/or performed for money (which seems highly likely), the other parties could not have testified against him without incriminating themselves. A way to get round this and make the charges against the main man stick would have been to treat the witnesses as victims of the crimes, whether they were or not.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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