The 'argument AGAINST Tumblety' debate thread

[Uncle Jack]

I thought I would start a thread for us all to debate the negative side of Tumbety's candicacy as the Ripper. He seems to have a lot of positive things going for him as a suspect but lets take the time to discuss the AGAINST arguments and points.

One of the main points I take into account is Tumblety's appearance, age and sexual preference. Being 56 years old, standing over six foot and the huge flamboyant moustache he possessed is one of the strongest things against him being the murderer in my opinion, not to mention that he was gay. These murders were clearly sexually motivated as far as I can see and I think we are ultimately dealing with a hetrosexual killer.

Anyone got anything else to add? Does the case against Tumblety rely heavily on press reports that may have not been even true? Was there any confirmation of what the press reported?

[spyglass]

I have always thought of Tumblety as ( a likely suspect ) but only that.
He does sound simular to Hutchinsons description in his statement if true.
But what bothers me is that his name never appears anywhere else in the files ( unless of course are part of the missing ones. ) Also it was only Littlechild who mentions him and as far as I know he was'nt involved in the JTR case.
I do though think he is a better suspect than a lot of others put forward.

[mklhawley]

I thought I would start a thread for us all to debate the negative side of Tumbety's candicacy as the Ripper. He seems to have a lot of positive things going for him as a suspect but lets take the time to discuss the AGAINST arguments and points.

One of the main points I take into account is Tumblety's appearance, age and sexual preference. Being 56 years old, standing over six foot and the huge flamboyant moustache he possessed is one of the strongest things against him being the murderer in my opinion, not to mention that he was gay. These murders were clearly sexually motivated as far as I can see and I think we are ultimately dealing with a hetrosexual killer.

Anyone got anything else to add? Does the case against Tumblety rely heavily on press reports that may have not been even true? Was there any confirmation of what the press reported?

Hi Adam,

Below are some of my responses on an earlier thread. They seem to be appropriate to your thread.

"Argument 1: Tumblety was too much of a flamboyant fame-seeking publicity hound to be JTR. He would ultimately have wanted to take credit for being the world’s famous serial killer.

Even if he was a publicity hound, it’s quite common for people to lead two separate lives (an acceptable public life and a seedy private life). We know Tumblety actually did lead two separate lives because of his arrest for having multiple homosexual Whitechapel encounters. Yet, I believe this is a serious misconception. Many see him as a harmless eccentric guy with the motivation to fit in with the rich and famous. On the contrary, Tumblety’s actions suggest he was the poster child for an aggressive narcissist. After Corey123 had made convincing arguments to show JTR was the worst kind of narcissist, it hit me that Tumblety shared some of these traits. Notice the Hare Psychopathy checklist for an aggressive narcissist: Glibness/superficial charm, Grandiose sense of self-worth, Pathological lying, Cunning/manipulative, Lack of remorse or guilt, Shallow affect (expressing emotions deceptively), Callous/lack of empathy, Failure to accept responsibility for own actions. Each one is classic Tumblety. His flamboyance was merely a tool for manipulation in order to attain his true desire: personal financial gain. He was a narcissistic scam artist employing effective sales and marketing techniques in order to manipulate a gullible public. In an era of slow mass communication, Tumblety would enter a new city in full glamour as if he were on a parade. There are numerous newspaper articles discussing this and even discussing the wealth he acquired. Even his parties were attempts to gain credibility with the more fortunate crowds in order to reinforce his money making practice. Once the public finally learned about his true background from better-informed authorities or once his patients started getting sick and even dying (evidence of no remorse), he merely pulled up his stakes and took his freshly earned money and business to a new city (or country).

Argument 2: Tumblety was nearly 6’ tall and had a huge mustache, so he would have been too conspicuous in the Whitechapel streets.

If Tumblety were JTR, do you really think it would be impossible for him to be inconspicuous? He certainly felt inconspicuous enough to pursue his homosexual activities with multiple young men in the Whitechapel district in November 1888 when authorities were at the height of combing the streets for JTR.
Keep in mind; the majestic tiger with its massive body and flamboyant colors has an MO of stealth and stalking, not unlike Jack the Ripper. Why are 500 – 800 pound brightly colored tigers so good at surprising their prey? They effectively use the environment. According to Donald Rumbelow, the streets of Whitechapel were very dark with multiple nooks and crannies. Although a picture of Tumblety has his mustache displayed out, the photograph of him in uniform has his mustache following the contour of his face and neck. This could easily fit into a cloak. A 5 foot 11 inch man is no different than a 5 foot 8-inch man at night and in the shadows, especially if he dresses down. Even in Tumblety’s interview in January 1889, he admits to dressing inconspicuously, “I was not dressed in a way to attract attention…”

Argument 3: Tumblety is too old to be a credible JTR suspect.

Remember, Tumblety was arrested twice for violent homosexual encounters in November 1888 with no less than four men. I’m sure the authorities who arrested him at the time for aggressive illegal sexual activities would not consider him too old to handle middle-aged female prostitutes (one at a time). Tumblety had certainly enough mojo to pursue multiple young men while in his fifties. Newspapers continued to characterize him as a powerfully built man. Keep in mind; the oldest known serial killer was a full 20 years older than Tumblety was at the time of the Whitechapel murders. It is also interesting to note that the JTR victims were in their forties; easier targets than younger prostitutes. Didn’t the youthful Ted Bundy likewise hunt youthful victims, so it is not out of the question that an older JTR would prefer older prostitutes?

Argument 4: There is no concrete evidence that Scotland Yard considered Tumblety a serious suspect.

To me, Evans & Gainey’s arguments are convincing enough to answer this argument, but even if you do not, absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. This is especially true with such a cold case as JTR where concrete physical evidence is all but absent. According to Donald Rumbelow, Scotland Yard officials were directed to exclude the press on the JTR investigation entirely. In view of this, how can one conclude Tumblety’d JTR suspect status by what Scotland Yard said or what they told the press? No wonder the UK press was so silent about Tumblety. With this kind of policy, in order to discover their true motives, one should not consider what Scotland Yard said but consider what they did. They certainly followed Tumblety to the U.S., and in following known Scotland Yard policy, claimed he was not being investigated for the Whitechapel murders.
Tumblety himself admitted to a reporter in January 1889 that Whitechapel authorities not only arrested him for the Whitechapel murders but also charged him with the murders. Tumblety stated, “I happened to be there when these Whitechapel murders…I was not dressed in a way to attract attention… I had simply been guilty of wearing a slouch hat, and for that I was charged with a series of the most horrible crimes ever recorded.” I believe it is foolhardy to reject Tumblety’s truthfulness in this particular part of the interview. He had nothing to gain by admitting to this, especially in light of his chosen profession. Tumblety would be more convincing to begin with facts already known to the public (being arrested and charged in connection with his type of hat), and then twist the story from there into a plausible yet deceptive story.
Interestingly, Tumblety claimed he was going to prepare a pamphlet to refute all charges against him, which never happened. This is reminiscent of what OJ Simpson claimed and then failed to do (recall that he claimed he was going to search tirelessly for the true killers on Nicole Brown Simpson once he was found innocent).

Argument 5: Tumblety does not fit the eyewitness testimonies.

Point one is that it certainly could be true that eyewitnesses were describing the wrong man, just as inspector Aberline suggested. Point two brings up a second revelation, which requires a change in Jack the Ripper’s MO. If the From Hell letter did come from JTR, recall how he signed it, “Catch me when you can.” This points to a killer proud of how he can mutilate a body on the public streets and then easily elude authorities. Not only does he have power over these women, he had power over a frightened public and a baffled police force. Would it not be more effective for a serial killer to focus just as much upon the set up to the attack as the attack itself? If I were JTR, I would certainly draw less attention to myself by not being seen with the prostitute in public at all. I would leisurely follow a selected prostitute on the crowded Whitechapel streets, wait for a John to solicit her, follow the two of them to an obviously private place, watch their sexual encounter, ensure no one else was around, and then once the John left the area, approach the prostitute for the attack whether it be in an ally, a court, or in an apartment. This would conveniently ensure false eyewitness testimony as an effective method of eluding the authorities in the future. While the authorities are looking for a younger, shorter, foreign guy, the taller, older JTR would be better able to roam the streets.
If JTR’s MO was to use a John to solicit his victim, then this opens up the possibility that Tumblety may have murdered Carrie Brown in New York City on April 23/24, 1891, as well. The eyewitness testimony may merely be describing the John and not the killer. Why I bring this up again is because of the amazing coincidence that not only was he in Whitechapel during murders, his residence was walking distance to Carrie Brown’s murder site in 1891 (another ripper-style murder)!
Some consider a stumbling block for Tumblety being Brown’s murderer is the robbery of him in Hot Springs, Arkansas, on “Friday night” (according to The Brooklyn Eagle), which would make it April 17. This is six full days prior to Brown’s murder, and a train ride back home to NYC was only a 2- or 3-day ride. It doesn’t seem too out of the question for Tumblety to quickly come back to NYC to get more cash, since he lost it all in Hot Springs. He could even have been so irritated at losing his precious hard-earned cash that this narcissist had to relieve himself by settling some scores with NYC authorities claiming JTR could never elude them (OK, this one is stretch, but hey, I’m trying to think out of the box).

Argument 6: There is no direct evidence of Tumblety being a violent woman hater and collector of uterus specimens. To elaborate, the eyewitness testimony of Colonel Dunham is the only direct eyewitness evidence that Tumblety had an extensive collection of uterus specimens and that he was also a woman hater. Since Dunham was a known liar and cheat, these two claims are now suspect, and should not be used. Tumblety no longer has a motive for the JTR killings, thus he is no longer a viable suspect.


This argument impresses me, but I have a few points. I do agree that Colonel Dunham spun a tail about Tumblety in December 1888 for personal reasons, especially since Tumblety was in all of the U.S. papers at the time as a major Ripper suspect. I do not agree, however, to entirely reject these two claims. In order for Dunham to get the biggest public reaction from this deceptive interview, why not embellish upon what Tumblety has previously been accused of. My contention is that the two claims, especially the woman hater claim, should not be ignored since Scotland Yard mostly likely considered them. Keep in mind; Littlechild in his letter stated, “…but his feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record.”
Regardless, I believe this argument is missing the point. The argument is challenging a possible motive for Tumblety to murder. Being a woman-hater is only one motive that fits a narcissistic Tumblety. According to the experts, the following are general motives for serial killers: visionary (voices told me to do it), mission-oriented (hate men, women, prostitutes, etc.), hedonistic (lust, for the thrill, for comfort/profit), and power. Apparently, all known serial killers have one thing in common, child abuse and/or neglect. Remember, Tumblety was selling pornographic material on the locks as a youth. This type of upbringing screams of parental neglect and even possible physical/sexual abuse."

Mike

[The Grave Maurice]

That was a brilliant post, Mike. But even SPE, who along with Paul Gainey got us all looking at Tumblety fifteen years ago, has cooled on him as a viable candidate. The good "doctor" was fun while he lasted, but his day on the suspect list is done.

[mklhawley]

...all the above said, I believe the best evidence against Tumblety is that there is no evidence of him being violent at all.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

That was a brilliant post, Mike. But even SPE, who along with Paul Gainey got us all looking at Tumblety fifteen years ago, has cooled on him as a viable candidate. The good "doctor" was fun while he lasted, but his day on the suspect list is done.

Hi Grave Maurice,

We must have hit the submit reply button at the same time! I do not completely disagree with you, but many have discounted him because of the above points. These just does not resonate with me well. Tumblety's lack of violent history seems to me to be the most convincing.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

...so then as I began to cool on Tumblety, Chris Scott posts a New York World article dated 26 November 1888 (just weeks after the last C5 murder) confirming Tumblety was a known woman hater prior to the Colonel Dunham interview. Not only this, it comments upon how a Scotland Yard chief inspector has telegraphed San Francisco in order to analyze "Twomblety's" handwriting. Things then heated up again.

Mike

[c.d.]

Hi Mike,

The "violent" homosexual encounters are coming from what source?

c.d.

[c.d.]

...so then as I began to cool on Tumblety, Chris Scott posts a New York World article dated 26 November 1888 (just weeks after the last C5 murder) confirming Tumblety was a known woman hater prior to the Colonel Dunham interview. Not only this, it comments upon how a Scotland Yard chief inspector has telegraphed San Francisco in order to analyze "Twomblety's" handwriting. Things then heated up again.

Mike

Hi Mike,

What source do we have that Tumblety was a known woman hater other than opinions expressed by Tumblety himself which could have been a smoke screen to cover up his homosexuality. Are there any instances of violence against women? In the absence of the latter, I can't give a lot of weight to the former.

c.d.

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

What source do we have that Tumblety was a known woman hater other than opinions expressed by Tumblety himself which could have been a smoke screen to cover up his homosexuality. Are there any instances of violence against women? In the absence of the latter, I can't give a lot of weight to the former.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Here's the newspaper article Chris found:

Articles from the New York World

26 November 1888

HE IS A MYSTERY TO ALL
WHO AND WHAT IS "DR" TWOMBLETY, THE WHITECHAPEL SUSPECT?

Among the scores of men arrested by the London police, suspected of having had something to do with the Whitechapel horrors, only one is still regarded with suspicion. He is said to be an American and his name has come over the cables as Kumberty, Twomberty and Tumberty, but the description which accompanied the various names was the same all the time, and it told of a man who, once seen, was not likely to be forgotten. He is known from one end of the country to the other, but, strange to say, while scores of people can give the most minute particulars as to his dress, carriage and personal appearance, from the color of his scarf to the size of his boot, no one appears to have the least idea of his home life, his business, his associates or his friends.
Men who have known him by sight for thirty years never saw him greet any one as a friend, never saw him in company with any one, and never knew just what his business was. It seems impossible that a man whose appearance is so striking as to attract universal attention on a crowded street should be able to throw about his movements an air of such impenetrable mystery. He has been seen in almost every city of the country from San Francisco to Bangor, Ma., yet no one knows where he was born, where he was raised, whether he is married or single, childless or with a family, or a hundred other little details which ordinary men are so fond of talking about.
"Dr." Twomblety, for that is the name by which he is known in New York, is a man who evidently has some strong reason for keeping his life buried in profound obscurity. The World a week ago published something of his career in this city.
"I have known Dr. Twomblety by sight for thirty years," said William H Carr, the veteran clerk of the Fifth Avenue Hotel, last night, "and I can tell you absolutely nothing about the man's habits, except what clothes he wore and how he looked. It was along in the fifties when I first saw him. I was then living in Boston, and I believe he lived somewhere in the North End. There was a vague rumor that he had an office somewhere and sold patent medicine, but I never saw any one who knew where the shop was or what he sold. Every one noticed him in those days, as is the case now, on account of his peculiar dressing. He would appear on the street in the most outlandish garments, fancy colored vests, gorgeous jewelry, and flashy coats and trousers.
"When I came to New York early in the sixties I saw the 'doctor' perambulating Broadway with his enormous greyhound following after him. In those days he used to wear a velvet coat, a blood red tie, a flowered vest, white trousers and flashy gloves, and he always carried a riding whip in his hand. He came into the Fifth Avenue Hotel often and would walk through the lobby in pompous style, with his chest thrown out and his shoulders well squared; but I never in my life saw him speak to any one, I never saw him accompanied by a friend and I never knew him to inquire for any one. I have often speculated about his means of living. I never saw any one who could tell anything about him, though hundreds of people knew his name and had seen him in cities all over the country. I have not seen him for several years and the last time he came into the hotel I noticed that he was aging rapidly. He is a singular character."
"Did you ever hear that he had an aversion to women?" Mr. Carr was asked.
"I heard several stories about that," he replied, "and the general impression among those who knew about his habits was that he avoided women. I never heard of his offering them any violence, and, indeed, he was the very last man I would think likely to be guilty of such crimes as those in Whitechapel."
Col. James L. Sothern, of Chicago, the well known lawyer, was talking to a group of friends in the Hoffman House when some one mentioned Twomblety's name. "I have met that fellow all over America and Europe," said Col. Sothern. "The first time I saw him was in London. It was along about 1870, I believe, and he was dressed up in the most startling fashion. I never saw anything quite equal to it. He had an enormous Russian shako on his head, an overcoat, the front of which was covered with decorations; earrings in his ears and by his side a very black negro fantastically got up in a parti colored dress that appeared to be a blending of the flags of all nations. A great crowd followed him, but he didn't appear to notice them. I saw him afterwards in San Francisco, and I have seen him a hundred times in Chicago. Once I met him in Cincinnati parading through the Burnet House, and I asked the clerk who he was. He told me the fellow's name was Twomblety, but he said he nothing about him, except that he didn't live there, and appeared to know no one. He said that he was kind of patent medicine man, he believed, who sold some off color medicine."
James Pryor, the detective of the Fifth Avenue Hotel, appeared to know more of the mysterious Twomblety than any one else. "It must be about twenty years ago since I first saw him," said Pryor, "and I can see him now just like he was then. He had an army officer's cap, a big cape and light colored trousers. He was a dandy then, I tell you. You couldn't find a finer made man in this town. He had a big black mustache, one of the backing brush kind, black eyes, a good complexion, and a walk like he had just been elected Alderman. He had a kind of a fake medicine shop down on Grand Street, where he sold his patent medicine. They chased him away from there and he opened up his place in Jersey City. I don't know how he made his money, but he always appeared to have plenty of it.
"Wherever he went he was followed by a thickset young man who kept about twenty paces behind him. They never spoke to each other; and when the 'doctor' would come into the hotel his shadow would lounge in after him. They got to telling tough stories about the 'doctor,' and the guests complained about him - the gentlemen, I mean - and said they didn't care to have him so near them, so I determined to bounce him. I remember that day very well, because I fired another fellow just before I did the 'doctor' and what happened afterwards made me remember that other fellow.
"The other chap was a wild faced little fellow, who used to be 'strung up' by the Republican National Committee in the daytime. They would get him to make speeches for them, and tell him they were going to give him a consulship. I said to them, 'You had better let that fellow alone. He will hurt somebody one day.' One morning I went into the reading room and there he was writing a speech in his bare feet. He had taken his shoes off and thrown them aside. I had a tough time getting him out, because he didn't want to go. The little fellow's name was Guiteau, and three months afterwards he killed President Garfield.
"But I never had that trouble with the 'doctor.' He was very quiet and as soon as he tumbled to the fact that I knew him he went right out. I saw him a year afterwards passing the hotel. He never came in, though. I have spent the best part of twenty years on Broadway and I have seen a great many curious characters, but Twomblety is one of the oddest fish I ever saw. He always had plenty of money, he appeared to dress regardless of expense and paid his bills, but I never could find out where the money came from or where the fellow lived."
"Do you think he is the Whitechapel murderer?"
"I certainly do not," the detective replied emphatically. "If I were to search New York for a man less likely to be guilty than the 'doctor' I wouldn't find him. Why, he hasn't the nerve of a chicken. He just had enough nerve to put some molasses and water together and label it a medicine - the biggest nerve being in the label - and sell it."
"Did he have an antipathy for women?"
"He seemed indifferent to them. I never saw him in all his walks up and down Broadway look at a woman. He never appeared to care for them, and many a time I have seen women look after him, for he was a very handsome fellow. He had the smallest hand and foot I ever saw. During the later years of his residence here he wore fewer diamonds and appeared to be getting a little toned down in his dress. He used to go abroad often and what he went for nobody ever knew. I never heard the sound of his voice in all the years I saw him."
However impressed with the belief in the 'doctor's' harmlessness those to whom he was a familiar figure here may be, the London police evidently do not share it. Although nothing tangible was produced connecting the eccentric wanderer with the Whitechapel crimes, the English authorities have evidently not abandoned their suspicions. Only a few days ago the London Chief of Police telegraphed to San Francisco requesting that specimens of Twomblety's handwriting in possession of the Hibernia bank there be forwarded to him. When these are compared with the chirography of "Jack the Ripper" another chapter may be added to the life story of this man of mystery.

Mike

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

The "violent" homosexual encounters are coming from what source?

c.d.

Hi c.d.'

This is the article right off of casebook:

"Francis Tumblety returned to Liverpool in June of 1888, and once again found himself at odds with the police. He was arrested on November 7th, 1888 on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27th and November 2."

Mike

[DirectorDave]

Having only recently seen the Photograph of Tumblety, I agree with what Jon said in the year in review podcast that he looks younger than his years.

The biggest argument for me against his candidacy is that he returned to the states and led a relatively normal (well normal for Francis) life......I don't think it was likely (although not impossible) that JtR just "Stopped".

[DirectorDave]

I can't remeber what age FT was meant to be in this photo but I am sure it was over 40.

Easy paper round?

[Supe]

Director Dave,

Where did you obtain the Tumblety photo, please? If from either Ripperologist magazine or Timothy Riordan's book you are in violation of copyright.

Don.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.'

This is the article right off of casebook:

"Francis Tumblety returned to Liverpool in June of 1888, and once again found himself at odds with the police. He was arrested on November 7th, 1888 on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27th and November 2."

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that but does force and arms necessarily mean violence? I was under the impression that it could also imply coercion but I could be wrong. Does anybody know the exact definition as it applied in Tumblety's case?

c.d.