Tumblety Motive & Cap'n Jack is Right

[corey123]

A.P, Mike,

I know a bit about how a serial killers sexual preference can influence his victim type and what not, although I haven't really thought about how a bi-sexual serial killer would be inflluenced.

Would he kill men or women?

Or would he kill both?

I have to see if that descision would be influenced further if the person was Narcissistic.

Hmm??

[Cap'n Jack]

It is not often that someone comes along and says I'm in the right, so thanks for that.
I think that most bisexuals probably suffer from some kind of inherent sexual confusion... and I do view Tumblety as a bisexual rather than a homosexual.
Recent research by the Home Office in the UK appears to suggest that many male killers of women have a background of confusion about their own sexual identity, and have experimented with or experienced some kind of homosexual behaviour in their past.
Tumblety's earlier success with women, and then his later escapades and love affairs - one of which is very well documented, and I have even posted love letters exchanged between them on these boards - with young men appears to give him that essential bisexual Byronesque quality of risk taking and skating on very thin ice in regard to accepted social morals,and indeed even the law of the land.

[corey123]

Mike,

the only homosexual serial killer I could think about that may possibally be narcissistic is Jeffery dahmer. I don't know enough about jeffery dahmer though to say weather or not he was indeed a narcissist.

I know for sure though that Ted Bundy and Harold Shipman were two exapmles if narcissistic serial killers.

Yours truly

[mklhawley]

Hello all,

Also noteworthy of narcissism is it was supposed to be apart of a disorder group by the name of "Monomania" and refered to in 1888. This is something I have just figured out so I don't know if it is so, but could be.

I have always thought the disorder was fully discovered in the lait 20th century, however if it is indeed apart of the disorder cluster 'monomania' then that notion would be wrong.

Just for reference, Narcissism is a classified "Type-A personality".

Yours truly

Corey,

I'm still intrigued about the 46% of serial killers/homosexual experience connection even though they considered themselves heterosexual. In your studies of narcissism and serial killers, have you encountered anything like this?

Sincerely,

Mike

[corey123]

Hello all,

Also noteworthy of narcissism is it was supposed to be apart of a disorder group by the name of "Monomania" and refered to in 1888. This is something I have just figured out so I don't know if it is so, but could be.

I have always thought the disorder was fully discovered in the lait 20th century, however if it is indeed apart of the disorder cluster 'monomania' then that notion would be wrong.

Just for reference, Narcissism is a classified "Type-A personality".

Yours truly

[corey123]

Mike, c.d, all,

Narcissism is a psycho-personality disorder. Most commonly described as a disorder of self love. The description I just provided is way off the spot. It is a disorder in which the indavidual suffers from enormous feelings of jealousy. They are pathalogical liars and manipulators. They have been described as cunning and filled with a "Superficial charm". On the inside however, they are a fragile, weak, and easily offinded person. They feel they deserve all the spot light and need a constent wave of admiration to survive happily. Many documented serial killers suffer from such disorders: Ted Bundy, Harold Shipman, ect. Like Mike said they feel no remorse towards others pain, actually alot of them get a kick out of it. Many narcissistic serial killers have been catagorized a sadistic killers. Without proper treatment, people suffering from Narcissistic personality disorder will live a very unhappy and very eventfull life. Not a good one either, and alot of untreated narcissists will choose to resort to violence to gain noterioty.

Mike,

Not a serial killer? If he wasn't then what was he?

Yours truly

p.s c.d is right, it is a huge difference. A narcissist would be terrified of death, especially if they would die unnoticed, again the attention thing. In jail, I am sure it would cause them to be more aware and careful. They wouldn't want to get caught. Sorry if that is far off from what the point c.d was making.

[Natalie Severn]

I'm lovin' your thought Norma, but first I want to be convinced this anger/relaliatory motive is a no go.

Mike

Thanks Mike,
Since my post [-see previous page] regarding Tumblety"s arrest where he allegedly attempted to induce an abortion,I have discovered more about the case.
Writing in Ripper Notes in July 2005, Wolf Vanderlinden states that Tumblety was charged with using abortifacients to induce an abortion for Philomine Dumas, a prostitute in Montreal.However charges were dropped after the Grand Jury returned a verdict of no true bill.Apparently there was evidence to show Tumblety had been "set up" by police and members of Montreal"s medical community.It is to be found in Part 1 which deals with Inspector Andrews" trip to Toronto.
Sounds like the medical profession were fed up with his "herb doctoring"-
Even so,I still think Tumblety could have been involved in both organ and feotus collecting---for sales purposes.There"s no smoke without fire as they say!

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

With all due respect, I think you are stretching it here. You can take any of the known suspects and ascribe a psychological profile to them that "fits" a serial killer motive. Exactly what does "aggressive narcissism" mean? Define it any way you want to but there is a big difference between being in jail for a short while and being hanged.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

I can't argue against the stretch and you are spot on about the profile thing, with one possible acception; narcissism. When you look at the traits of aggressive narcissism specific to my point (Cunning/manipulative, Lack of remorse or guilt, Shallow affect (expressing emotions deceptively), Callous/lack of empathy, Failure to accept responsibility for own actions) they are not able to feel emotions like average people. I resonse of fear is just different. Recall Jeffrey Dahmer lying to the police officers who brought back his victim/dinner, who escaped from Dahmer's house. He was calm when he told the officers it was just a gay lovers quarrel, and it worked. Lover was then dinner.

Just a thought.

Mike

[c.d.]

I think you lost my point c.d., I am saying he was not homosexual and he had no issue with women. He was narcissistic and had the serial killer motive of anger/retaliation. Also, if you look at aggressive narcissism, he would not have been threatened by the jail experience.

Mike

Hi Mike,

With all due respect, I think you are stretching it here. You can take any of the known suspects and ascribe a psychological profile to them that "fits" a serial killer motive. Exactly what does "aggressive narcissism" mean? Define it any way you want to but there is a big difference between being in jail for a short while and being hanged.

c.d.

[mklhawley]

I am interested in your theory, Michael though I doubt whether Tumblety had an std or not has much bearing on the matter.Tons of people did apparently.
Also Tumblety did have a run in with the law over his dealings with a young man early on in his "herb doctor" practice,though I have forgotten the details of the case.
What I have begun to wonder about is whether he had some kind of business collecting organs,feotuses and other items that he sold to hospitals for profit later having "preserved" them.
All he would have needed to know in the very first instance is where illegal abortionists hung out and in the East End of 1888 and there would most definitely have been a call for such services.
Then he would have flaunted his cash to encourage a supply.
Now its just possible that a medical student might have had knowledge of where and how to obtain feotuses or someone with enough knowledge of how to extricate from the womb an almost fixed term child.
Which brings me to my next point:

If Jack the Ripper was also responsible for any of the torso murders then a motive does start to emerge.
Elizabeth Jackson was almost full term when her torso was found in June 1889 with the feotus removed.The child had been removed AFTER death---therefore less blood---BY a SINGLE SLICE TO THE UTERUS WALL! The feotuswas never found--but most of her other body parts were found.
Most abortions were performed in those days by the woman taking a "medicine" which brought on miscarriage and evacuated the feotus.Tumblety in fact had been tried for giving such a substance to a woman in Canada some years before.
Its possible too that he had "connections" with other "abortionists" in Whitechapel ,New York wherever he went about his lucrative business----he died very rich remember.
I dont believe Tumblety was Jack the Ripper but he may have worked a deal with him.The ripper may have been an illegal abortionist,and when he was asked by "clients" to provide feotuses he may have sometimes been prepared to kill -as in the case of Elizabeth Jackson.
To me it sometimes looks like he was "practising" initially on the Whitechapel victims---especially in the cases of Polly Nichols and her immediate successor, Annie Chapman, where he had managed to gain sufficient confidence in the intervening week to extract her uterus and impress Dr Phillips with his panache!
Who,if he ever existed was the 5ft 11 inch "pipeman" standing across the road from Elizabeth Stride?[Tumblety was 5ft 11 ins] Was he shouting a warning?
Why did he chase off Schwartz?

Best
Norma

I'm lovin' your thought Norma, but first I want to be convinced this anger/relaliatory motive is a no go.

Mike

[mklhawley]

One has to wonder why a middle aged homosexual man with no prior history of violence towards women would go to a foreign country to kill prostitutes. There is also nothing to link him to violence towards women after this period. I also find it really hard to believe that he would be so bold as to kill Mary Kelly shortly after being released from jail knowing that in all likelihood he was being watched.

c.d.

I think you lost my point c.d., I am saying he was not homosexual and he had no issue with women. He was narcissistic and had the serial killer motive of anger/retaliation. Also, if you look at aggressive narcissism, he would not have been threatened by the jail experience.

Mike

[c.d.]

Hi c.d. just to point out that our posts crossed---I assume you are addressing the previous poster.N

Hi Natalie,

I'm not sure what the hell I was doing but I try not to let that stop me.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi c.d. just to point out that our posts crossed---I assume you are addressing the previous poster.N

[c.d.]

One has to wonder why a middle aged homosexual man with no prior history of violence towards women would go to a foreign country to kill prostitutes. There is also nothing to link him to violence towards women after this period. I also find it really hard to believe that he would be so bold as to kill Mary Kelly shortly after being released from jail knowing that in all likelihood he was being watched.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

I am interested in your theory, Michael though I doubt whether Tumblety had an std or not has much bearing on the matter.Tons of people did apparently.
Also Tumblety did have a run in with the law over his dealings with a young man early on in his "herb doctor" practice,though I have forgotten the details of the case.
What I have begun to wonder about is whether he had some kind of business collecting organs,feotuses and other items that he sold to hospitals for profit later having "preserved" them.
All he would have needed to know in the very first instance is where illegal abortionists hung out and in the East End of 1888 and there would most definitely have been a call for such services.
Then he would have flaunted his cash to encourage a supply.
Now its just possible that a medical student might have had knowledge of where and how to obtain feotuses or someone with enough knowledge of how to extricate from the womb an almost fixed term child.
Which brings me to my next point:

If Jack the Ripper was also responsible for any of the torso murders then a motive does start to emerge.
Elizabeth Jackson was almost full term when her torso was found in June 1889 with the feotus removed.The child had been removed AFTER death---therefore less blood---BY a SINGLE SLICE TO THE UTERUS WALL! The feotuswas never found--but most of her other body parts were found.
Most abortions were performed in those days by the woman taking a "medicine" which brought on miscarriage and evacuated the feotus.Tumblety in fact had been tried for giving such a substance to a woman in Canada some years before.
Its possible too that he had "connections" with other "abortionists" in Whitechapel ,New York wherever he went about his lucrative business----he died very rich remember.
I dont believe Tumblety was Jack the Ripper but he may have worked a deal with him.The ripper may have been an illegal abortionist,and when he was asked by "clients" to provide feotuses he may have sometimes been prepared to kill -as in the case of Elizabeth Jackson.
To me it sometimes looks like he was "practising" initially on the Whitechapel victims---especially in the cases of Polly Nichols and her immediate successor, Annie Chapman, where he had managed to gain sufficient confidence in the intervening week to extract her uterus and impress Dr Phillips with his panache!
Who,if he ever existed was the 5ft 11 inch "pipeman" standing across the road from Elizabeth Stride?[Tumblety was 5ft 11 ins] Was he shouting a warning?
Why did he chase off Schwartz?

Best
Norma