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  • Tumblety Motive & Cap'n Jack is Right

    Greetings all,

    Recent evidence suggests Cap’n Jack hit the nail on the head about Francis Tumblety, yet dollars to donuts he’ll place me in banana status again after reading my argument. I could be guilty of cherry picking the evidence, but Cap’n Jack’s claim appears to fit a highly plausible Tumblety motive. First, it seems we all agree that if Francis Tumblety were Jack the Ripper, then a motive for him to have perpetrated such heinous murders must be exceptionally obvious (since he has no confirmed history of such violent behavior). The only possible motive suggested so far that fits the bill is he being a woman-hater. A convincing counter-argument to this is that he was a homosexual and homosexual serial killers tend to focus upon males, regardless if he was a woman-hater or not. My contention is that Tumblety was not a homosexual (as revealed to me by Cap’n Jack) and that his anger/aggression was not directed at women in general, but at prostitutes.

    Evidence for Tumblety actually being a heterosexual comes from numerous newspaper articles in his early years. These articles commented upon how the young ladies were excited about his arrival to their particular city and that Tumblety was a “womaniser”. Now, Tumblety was certainly arrested in November 1888 twice for aggressive homosexual activity (gross indecency), which is the only strong (but convincing) piece of evidence to suggest he was a homosexual. To reinforce this perception of his sexual orientation was Colonel Dunham’s interview in early December 1888, but we now know he was a scam artist.

    If we look at Tumblety’s gross indecency arrests in light of recent data collected on serial killers, his covert homosexual activities just might be mere normal heterosexual serial killer experiences. As I’ve stated on an earlier thread, the proportion of serial killers who are known to have had homosexual experiences is over 43%! (Statistical analysis of the proportion of homosexuality among serial killers, with a listing of prominent GLBT/homosexual serial killers). If correct, this means there is nearly a 50/50 chance that JTR engaged in homosexual activities, just as Tumblety did. Also, keep in mind Tumblety engaged in these activities in the very same location as the Whitechapel murders.

    So, why would he kill prostitutes? The match between Francis Tumblety and the traits of an aggressive narcissist is uncanny. Recall that the Hare Psychopathy checklist for an aggressive narcissist is as follows: Glibness/superficial charm, Grandiose sense of self-worth, Pathological lying, Cunning/manipulative, Lack of remorse or guilt, Shallow affect (expressing emotions deceptively), Callous/lack of empathy, Failure to accept responsibility for own actions. Each one fits Tumblety like a glove.

    The following are general motives for serial killers: visionary (voices told me to do it), mission-oriented (hate men, women, prostitutes, etc.), hedonistic (lust, for the thrill, for comfort/profit), and power. This leads to the possible anger/retaliatory motive of Tumblety against prostitutes. What if this aggressive narcissist contracted gonorrhea or another sexually transmitted disease (STD) from a prostitute prior to the Whitechapel murders and is now in retaliatory mode (mission-oriented motive)? This seems to fit perfectly for an aggressive narcissist retaliating without remorse.

    Is there any evidence of Tumblety having some type of STD? Recall that Tumblety died in 1903 due to heart complications, which is one of the symptoms of certain STDs, such as syphilis and gonorrhea. Others have suggested Dr. T may have had STD, so I am not making this up. We also know that for years Tumblety visited places like Hot Springs, Arkansas. At the time, the hot springs were well known for medicinal purposes, especially for ailments that were incurable at the time.

    To me, this conforms well to all of the evidence and it eliminates the homosexual issue entirely, especially because 46% of all serial killers have homosexual experiences.

    Just thinkin’.

    Sincerely,

    Michael Hawley
    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

  • #2
    MK,

    One thing though, despite the gossip that has been presented regarding Tumblety's attraction to women, his relationships with men are well-documented and there is actual evidence regarding his relationships with men (and don't forget, the men that Tumblety was arrested with consorting with were discribed as being "young men" and when he was in Liverpool, he was also known to associate with men who were considerably younger than he was; so, this could be implied that he may have had a taste for adolescent boys). Also, being labeled a womanizer back in those days was considered a serious social scandal, just as badly as rumors of homosexuality. So, it is possible that the gossip of his fraternizing with multiple women could also have been made up to tarnish is image.

    Also, while there is verifiable proof of his homosexual activities, we have not uncovered any concrete evidence of his attraction to women. Example, no marriage license, no evidence he ever fathered a child, etc.
    Last edited by JTRSickert; 01-22-2010, 05:45 PM.
    I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

    Comment


    • #3
      If I'm correct, Michael, the statistics to which you refer are 'self reported' and have no evidentiary corroboration whatever. I strongly suspect that they stem from the claim made by many offenders that they were the victims of childhood sexual abuse. Again, given that such claims are unsupported by independent evidence, they have to be treated with caution.

      As for the notion that Tumblety had in his younger days been a womaniser, I seem to recall similar stories concerning Rock Hudson.

      Regards.

      Garry Wroe.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Garry Wroe View Post
        If I'm correct, Michael, the statistics to which you refer are 'self reported' and have no evidentiary corroboration whatever. I strongly suspect that they stem from the claim made by many offenders that they were the victims of childhood sexual abuse. Again, given that such claims are unsupported by independent evidence, they have to be treated with caution.

        As for the notion that Tumblety had in his younger days been a womaniser, I seem to recall similar stories concerning Rock Hudson.

        Regards.

        Garry Wroe.
        Garry and JTR,

        Good points. I am still intrigued that if the 46% statistic holds true, JTR (if a serial killer) may himself have had homosexual experiences.

        Mike
        The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
        http://www.michaelLhawley.com

        Comment


        • #5
          I am interested in your theory, Michael though I doubt whether Tumblety had an std or not has much bearing on the matter.Tons of people did apparently.
          Also Tumblety did have a run in with the law over his dealings with a young man early on in his "herb doctor" practice,though I have forgotten the details of the case.
          What I have begun to wonder about is whether he had some kind of business collecting organs,feotuses and other items that he sold to hospitals for profit later having "preserved" them.
          All he would have needed to know in the very first instance is where illegal abortionists hung out and in the East End of 1888 and there would most definitely have been a call for such services.
          Then he would have flaunted his cash to encourage a supply.
          Now its just possible that a medical student might have had knowledge of where and how to obtain feotuses or someone with enough knowledge of how to extricate from the womb an almost fixed term child.
          Which brings me to my next point:

          If Jack the Ripper was also responsible for any of the torso murders then a motive does start to emerge.
          Elizabeth Jackson was almost full term when her torso was found in June 1889 with the feotus removed.The child had been removed AFTER death---therefore less blood---BY a SINGLE SLICE TO THE UTERUS WALL! The feotuswas never found--but most of her other body parts were found.
          Most abortions were performed in those days by the woman taking a "medicine" which brought on miscarriage and evacuated the feotus.Tumblety in fact had been tried for giving such a substance to a woman in Canada some years before.
          Its possible too that he had "connections" with other "abortionists" in Whitechapel ,New York wherever he went about his lucrative business----he died very rich remember.
          I dont believe Tumblety was Jack the Ripper but he may have worked a deal with him.The ripper may have been an illegal abortionist,and when he was asked by "clients" to provide feotuses he may have sometimes been prepared to kill -as in the case of Elizabeth Jackson.
          To me it sometimes looks like he was "practising" initially on the Whitechapel victims---especially in the cases of Polly Nichols and her immediate successor, Annie Chapman, where he had managed to gain sufficient confidence in the intervening week to extract her uterus and impress Dr Phillips with his panache!
          Who,if he ever existed was the 5ft 11 inch "pipeman" standing across the road from Elizabeth Stride?[Tumblety was 5ft 11 ins] Was he shouting a warning?
          Why did he chase off Schwartz?

          Best
          Norma
          Last edited by Natalie Severn; 01-22-2010, 06:15 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            One has to wonder why a middle aged homosexual man with no prior history of violence towards women would go to a foreign country to kill prostitutes. There is also nothing to link him to violence towards women after this period. I also find it really hard to believe that he would be so bold as to kill Mary Kelly shortly after being released from jail knowing that in all likelihood he was being watched.

            c.d.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi c.d. just to point out that our posts crossed---I assume you are addressing the previous poster.N

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                Hi c.d. just to point out that our posts crossed---I assume you are addressing the previous poster.N
                Hi Natalie,

                I'm not sure what the hell I was doing but I try not to let that stop me.

                c.d.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                  One has to wonder why a middle aged homosexual man with no prior history of violence towards women would go to a foreign country to kill prostitutes. There is also nothing to link him to violence towards women after this period. I also find it really hard to believe that he would be so bold as to kill Mary Kelly shortly after being released from jail knowing that in all likelihood he was being watched.

                  c.d.
                  I think you lost my point c.d., I am saying he was not homosexual and he had no issue with women. He was narcissistic and had the serial killer motive of anger/retaliation. Also, if you look at aggressive narcissism, he would not have been threatened by the jail experience.

                  Mike
                  The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                  http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
                    I am interested in your theory, Michael though I doubt whether Tumblety had an std or not has much bearing on the matter.Tons of people did apparently.
                    Also Tumblety did have a run in with the law over his dealings with a young man early on in his "herb doctor" practice,though I have forgotten the details of the case.
                    What I have begun to wonder about is whether he had some kind of business collecting organs,feotuses and other items that he sold to hospitals for profit later having "preserved" them.
                    All he would have needed to know in the very first instance is where illegal abortionists hung out and in the East End of 1888 and there would most definitely have been a call for such services.
                    Then he would have flaunted his cash to encourage a supply.
                    Now its just possible that a medical student might have had knowledge of where and how to obtain feotuses or someone with enough knowledge of how to extricate from the womb an almost fixed term child.
                    Which brings me to my next point:

                    If Jack the Ripper was also responsible for any of the torso murders then a motive does start to emerge.
                    Elizabeth Jackson was almost full term when her torso was found in June 1889 with the feotus removed.The child had been removed AFTER death---therefore less blood---BY a SINGLE SLICE TO THE UTERUS WALL! The feotuswas never found--but most of her other body parts were found.
                    Most abortions were performed in those days by the woman taking a "medicine" which brought on miscarriage and evacuated the feotus.Tumblety in fact had been tried for giving such a substance to a woman in Canada some years before.
                    Its possible too that he had "connections" with other "abortionists" in Whitechapel ,New York wherever he went about his lucrative business----he died very rich remember.
                    I dont believe Tumblety was Jack the Ripper but he may have worked a deal with him.The ripper may have been an illegal abortionist,and when he was asked by "clients" to provide feotuses he may have sometimes been prepared to kill -as in the case of Elizabeth Jackson.
                    To me it sometimes looks like he was "practising" initially on the Whitechapel victims---especially in the cases of Polly Nichols and her immediate successor, Annie Chapman, where he had managed to gain sufficient confidence in the intervening week to extract her uterus and impress Dr Phillips with his panache!
                    Who,if he ever existed was the 5ft 11 inch "pipeman" standing across the road from Elizabeth Stride?[Tumblety was 5ft 11 ins] Was he shouting a warning?
                    Why did he chase off Schwartz?

                    Best
                    Norma
                    I'm lovin' your thought Norma, but first I want to be convinced this anger/relaliatory motive is a no go.

                    Mike
                    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                      I think you lost my point c.d., I am saying he was not homosexual and he had no issue with women. He was narcissistic and had the serial killer motive of anger/retaliation. Also, if you look at aggressive narcissism, he would not have been threatened by the jail experience.

                      Mike
                      Hi Mike,

                      With all due respect, I think you are stretching it here. You can take any of the known suspects and ascribe a psychological profile to them that "fits" a serial killer motive. Exactly what does "aggressive narcissism" mean? Define it any way you want to but there is a big difference between being in jail for a short while and being hanged.

                      c.d.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                        Hi Mike,

                        With all due respect, I think you are stretching it here. You can take any of the known suspects and ascribe a psychological profile to them that "fits" a serial killer motive. Exactly what does "aggressive narcissism" mean? Define it any way you want to but there is a big difference between being in jail for a short while and being hanged.

                        c.d.
                        Hi c.d.,

                        I can't argue against the stretch and you are spot on about the profile thing, with one possible acception; narcissism. When you look at the traits of aggressive narcissism specific to my point (Cunning/manipulative, Lack of remorse or guilt, Shallow affect (expressing emotions deceptively), Callous/lack of empathy, Failure to accept responsibility for own actions) they are not able to feel emotions like average people. I resonse of fear is just different. Recall Jeffrey Dahmer lying to the police officers who brought back his victim/dinner, who escaped from Dahmer's house. He was calm when he told the officers it was just a gay lovers quarrel, and it worked. Lover was then dinner.

                        Just a thought.

                        Mike
                        The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                        http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                          I'm lovin' your thought Norma, but first I want to be convinced this anger/relaliatory motive is a no go.

                          Mike

                          Thanks Mike,
                          Since my post [-see previous page] regarding Tumblety"s arrest where he allegedly attempted to induce an abortion,I have discovered more about the case.
                          Writing in Ripper Notes in July 2005, Wolf Vanderlinden states that Tumblety was charged with using abortifacients to induce an abortion for Philomine Dumas, a prostitute in Montreal.However charges were dropped after the Grand Jury returned a verdict of no true bill.Apparently there was evidence to show Tumblety had been "set up" by police and members of Montreal"s medical community.It is to be found in Part 1 which deals with Inspector Andrews" trip to Toronto.
                          Sounds like the medical profession were fed up with his "herb doctoring"-
                          Even so,I still think Tumblety could have been involved in both organ and feotus collecting---for sales purposes.There"s no smoke without fire as they say!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mike, c.d, all,

                            Narcissism is a psycho-personality disorder. Most commonly described as a disorder of self love. The description I just provided is way off the spot. It is a disorder in which the indavidual suffers from enormous feelings of jealousy. They are pathalogical liars and manipulators. They have been described as cunning and filled with a "Superficial charm". On the inside however, they are a fragile, weak, and easily offinded person. They feel they deserve all the spot light and need a constent wave of admiration to survive happily. Many documented serial killers suffer from such disorders: Ted Bundy, Harold Shipman, ect. Like Mike said they feel no remorse towards others pain, actually alot of them get a kick out of it. Many narcissistic serial killers have been catagorized a sadistic killers. Without proper treatment, people suffering from Narcissistic personality disorder will live a very unhappy and very eventfull life. Not a good one either, and alot of untreated narcissists will choose to resort to violence to gain noterioty.

                            Mike,

                            Not a serial killer? If he wasn't then what was he?

                            Yours truly

                            p.s c.d is right, it is a huge difference. A narcissist would be terrified of death, especially if they would die unnoticed, again the attention thing. In jail, I am sure it would cause them to be more aware and careful. They wouldn't want to get caught. Sorry if that is far off from what the point c.d was making.
                            Last edited by corey123; 01-23-2010, 12:51 AM.
                            Washington Irving:

                            "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                            Stratford-on-Avon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hello all,

                              Also noteworthy of narcissism is it was supposed to be apart of a disorder group by the name of "Monomania" and refered to in 1888. This is something I have just figured out so I don't know if it is so, but could be.

                              I have always thought the disorder was fully discovered in the lait 20th century, however if it is indeed apart of the disorder cluster 'monomania' then that notion would be wrong.

                              Just for reference, Narcissism is a classified "Type-A personality".

                              Yours truly
                              Washington Irving:

                              "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

                              Stratford-on-Avon

                              Comment

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