Tumblety's physical appearance

[celee]

Hello. This is all quite plausible, of course.

I presume that, on this scenario, C3 and C5 are ruled out for obvious reasons. Moreover, I would assume the slayer of C1 and C4 missed the full payoff being offered--again, for obvious reasons. Afterwards, the "heat" getting close to Dr. T, he would bolt. Perhaps, then, only 1 or 2 such "brawnies" as he happened to employ could be easily silenced.

LC

Hi,

Well, Abberline put forth an organ harvesting theory in 1903. The story he tells about an American going to Medical schools to obtain organs and the posibility of the strange man hiring someone to kill and harvest the organs from unfortunates.

The idea of two or more killers is part of many theories. Tumblety could of had a partner. Druitt perhapes?

Your friend, Brad

[lynn cates]

partners

Hello Brad. If Tumblety was in any way implicated in one ore more of the killings, then the question becomes, "Who did the dirty work?" I rather like Mike's conjecture of a local thug.

If Druitt were working for Tumblety, he must have had a motive. As far as I can see, the principal motive for such work would be financial and Monty seemed to have been comfortably placed with his 2 jobs.

So, in my conjecture, if Druitt were involved in the killings, it would have been solo and for a very different reason from money.

The best.
LC

[celee]

Hello Brad. If Tumblety was in any way implicated in one ore more of the killings, then the question becomes, "Who did the dirty work?" I rather like Mike's conjecture of a local thug.

If Druitt were working for Tumblety, he must have had a motive. As far as I can see, the principal motive for such work would be financial and Monty seemed to have been comfortably placed with his 2 jobs.

So, in my conjecture, if Druitt were involved in the killings, it would have been solo and for a very different reason from money.

The best.
LC

Hi,

That is good point. I do not suport the Organ Harvesting theory or at least not in the way Abberline put forth. I was just pointing out that there are alot of theories were two or more men were working together so to suggest that Tumblety may of had a partner is not out of line. Remember pipe man and the man who was asking about Lusk's address.

Your friend, Brad

[lynn cates]

disappointment

Hello Brad. Yes, I do indeed.

If pipe man were working in tandem with another, and for organs, there was bound to be some disappointment, for with Stride they came up short.

Cheers.
LC

[mklhawley]

Question on the harvest idea. If it is correct that Tumblety went to the museum requesting uterus specimens, thus, Tumblety was in the business of increasing his uterus collection, would it have been possible that this relatively weathly man paid a low life accomplis to do the dirty work? His arrest attests to him associating with less than the upper crest of society.

Mike

[merlyn555]

Tumblety's description

To get back to the physical description of Tumblety there is one thing that has not been approached with regard to it and that is tumblety's narcistic nature. He was a very vain man and as everyone knows a shameless self promoter.
There is no evidence to show that he was a very tall man in fact he was at the very most 5' 9" to 5' 10" in height which in it's self is tall for the time period but not exceptionally tall like a person of six feet or over. Some one at this time period exceeding the height of six feet would be looked at with amazement and have men and children following him around totally agog of his size for Tumblety was a very well proportioned man and if he was over six feet then his shoulders would be massive and so would his hands and feet and I have found not reference to the enormous size of his appendages.
It appears to me that Tumblety dressed to effect the "illusion" of great height by carefully choosing clothing that gave that idea. Like wearing hats that are taller than normal, choosing coats that are slightly too short in the arms. he would accentuate this optical illusion by seating himself on the biggest white horse he could find and by surrounding himself with tall slim dogs and people shorter and smaller than himself.
Tumblety was an exceptionally vain man and wanted to be the center of attention everywhere he went, if he was as tall as he says he is he would not have needed to always dress flamboyantly to gain attention all he would have to do is walk into a room and all conversation would stop. No I feel that the evidence so far as I have found shows him to be just a little bit taller than the average man.

Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

There is no evidence to show that he was a very tall man in fact he was at the very most 5' 9" to 5' 10" in height which in it's self is tall for the time period but not exceptionally tall like a person of six feet or over.

Hi there

I believe it is accepted that Tumblety was 5' 11" in height. There is the bizarre story that he told about himself being believed dead and ready to be buried, and the mortician found him too long to fit in the coffin:

"The Doctor used to tell a queer story about himself as if, as if he b[e]lieved it. He said he was once dead, and proceeded to explain by stating that when riding near Pittsburg one day he was thrown from his horse and carried home for dead. He claimed that he then lay dead for three days, and was only brought to life by the undertaker, who found him too long for his coffin, attempting to saw off his legs."
New York Herald, 19 November 1888 here on Casebook.

This shows that he was rather taller than the average man.

Best regards

Chris

[merlyn555]

Hi Chris and thanks for the responce...

That is a very interesting story, I have never heard it before but again I must point out that it was Tumblety relating the story so he is inclined to exaggerate.

it is too bad that we don't have evidence of an impartial measurement somewhere....

but then again if it was easy it would be no fun.

the more I look into the life of this man the more interesting he becomes.

Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris

Yes indeed Tumblety is an intensely interesting character: flamboyant, a self-promoter, and a liar. Still, I think that you are correct that some of the stories that were either told by himself about himself, or were told about him, were untrue. I think it was his flamboyance and his homosexuality and also his promotion of Irish nationalism that brought him to the notice of the British police and particularly the Special Branch (vide the Littlechild Letter). He may have been a suspicious character but I am not sure there was ever any tangible evidence to tie him to the Whitechapel Murders, despite Littlechild's claim that he was a leading suspect. That is the conclusion reached by Tim Riordan in his full-scale recent biography of him, Prince of Quacks: The Notorious Life of Dr. Francis Tumblety, Charlatan and Jack the Ripper Suspect (McFarland, 2009).

All the best

Chris

[mklhawley]

Hi Chris

Yes indeed Tumblety is an intensely interesting character: flamboyant, a self-promoter, and a liar. Still, I think that you are correct that some of the stories that were either told by himself about himself, or were told about him, were untrue. I think it was his flamboyance and his homosexuality and also his promotion of Irish nationalism that brought him to the notice of the British police and particularly the Special Branch (vide the Littlechild Letter). He may have been a suspicious character but I am not sure there was ever any tangible evidence to tie him to the Whitechapel Murders, despite Littlechild's claim that he was a leading suspect. That is the conclusion reached by Tim Riordan in his full-scale recent biography of him, Prince of Quacks: The Notorious Life of Dr. Francis Tumblety, Charlatan and Jack the Ripper Suspect (McFarland, 2009).

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris,

I think you hit the nail on the head, although I put more weight on Littlechild because he was 'in the know' with both Special Branch and CID. I also personally put more weight on Palmer's assessments and Riordan's.

Mike

[merlyn555]

Yes I agree that Tumblety probably would have come under the scrutiny of the London Police sooner or later because of his antics but this was a period of time when he had toned down quite a bit in his dress and strange deportment.

You must also agree that there was no tangible evidence against anyone in the JtR case or the police would have beat it to death following lead after lead to get a good suspect.

When compared to all the other people the police looked at Tumblety is the only one actually seen in the Whitechapel district, followed by police and then questioned about his activities and then arrested. He freely admits he was in the area at the time of the murders in his 1891 newspaper interview and the London authorities obviously tried to keep him in jail by posting such a high bond for such minor charges, they had suspicions I think.

Just some idle thoughts on my part.

Chris

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

…and the London authorities obviously tried to keep him in jail by posting such a high bond for such minor charges, they had suspicions I think.

This is one of those Tumblety myths that doesn’t seem to die even though it has been disproved.

Rob Clack and Tim Riordan have shown that J L Hannay, the Magistrate who Tumblety appeared before, regularly fixed bail for men accused of acts of gross indecency at similar or even higher rates than Tumblety’s. In one case a defendant was forced to pay sureties and bail totalling £800. This man had absolutely nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders yet the combined sum to secure his bail was over double what Tumblety was asked to pay. Rather than show an interest in Tumblety as a suspect the bail tends to show the opposite: that if the police really wanted to keep Tumblety in jail they could have set his bail much higher.

Wolf.

[mklhawley]

How much his bail was set for is actually irrelevant to him being a murder suspect, anyway. Of the eight charges, none were about the Whitechapel murders. Even if the prosecutor had a sidebar with the magistrate requesting an exceptionally high bail because the guy knows he's a murder suspect (hence, a flight risk), Tumblety's solicitor would have correctly argued that his murder suspect status cannot be considered because there would be no way to counter the arguments.

What more likely occurred was the prosecutor argued that since Tumblety was a no show for his November 14 charging, chances are he's a flight risk. The magistrate agreed enough to give him a high bail, just like a couple of others, which is a far cry from Hannay ALWAYS posting a high bail. Did Hannay have reason to post a high bail? Certainly, because the homosexual subculture was getting out of hand, as evidenced by the 1889 Cleveland Street Scandal.

Sincerely,

Mike