Tumblety and the e-fit

[perrymason]

Tumblety's involvement need not be as the killer himself, he could well have contracted the uterus collection out to local thugs. So how tall he was, his moustache, his gait, his attire may have no relevance at all to his potential involvement.

As Ben points out, we may have witness accounts of killers, such as Schwartz's or Lawendes, but we have no verified sightings of this "Jack" fellow. Blotchy Face may have killed Mary, Broadshouldered Man may have killed Liz, but its very possible neither were "Ripper" victims, so dont get hung up on who saw whom in these cases.

Two women had wombs taken, one partial one complete, if Tumblety had any involvement I think one should look to murders that might have a motive up his alley like those.

This "Jack" spree may be as many as 3 separate killers or more, so when looking at Tumblety, it would be wise to look only at the ones that had some possible connection with him.....and if his collection story was at all accurate, you have that with only two victims.

Best regards.

[Dan Norder]

Tumblety's involvement need not be as the killer himself, he could well have contracted the uterus collection out to local thugs.

Except he didn't have a collection of uteri, and the rumor of an American doctor looking for specimens predates the Ripper killings, was wildly exaggerated, and had nothing to do with Tumblety.

[Nigel Winterburn]

Hi Nigel,

Well, no, because she identified Chapman's body as that of the woman she saw. She must have had some degree of confidence in her recollective abilities or she would likely have said "Don't know, didn't notice" when confronted with the victim's corpse. Similarly, her recollection of a snippet of conversation suggests that she wasn't completely disinterested in the couple.

All the best,
Ben

If we are to accept that they were able to recollect enough to identify the victims then I think we must also accept that they could remember the looks of the man aswell. So we have two "witnesses" with two vastly different descriptions of the man with the victim.

[Stephen Thomas]

If we are to accept that they were able to recollect enough to identify the victims then I think we must also accept that they could remember the looks of the man aswell. So we have two "witnesses" with two vastly different descriptions of the man with the victim.

Indeed, but how exactly did that Arsenal offside trap work?

[perrymason]

Except he didn't have a collection of uteri, and the rumor of an American doctor looking for specimens predates the Ripper killings, was wildly exaggerated, and had nothing to do with Tumblety.

Hi Dan,

The uteri in jars story is not believed by you and others, I know that. But thats not proof it was a lie.

The American Doctor seeking to purchase uteri from Medical institutions to accompany research papers being sent to America was denied by only one of the two sources mentioned, and although it pre-dates the killings, it does not mean that the good doctor had given up his quest...only that he didnt continue to pursue legal channels to obtain them.

Two of 5 women had that same organ taken, #2 and #4. There is no other organ that was taken twice.

Best regards Dan.

[Nigel Winterburn]

Indeed, but how exactly did that Arsenal offside trap work?

Hahahaha. I was waiting for someone to spot that.

Cheers

[m_w_r]

Lee Dixon - MOTD2.

Nigel Winterburn - Casebook.

I think we know who's winning.

[Nigel Winterburn]

Lee Dixon - MOTD2.

Nigel Winterburn - Casebook.

I think we know who's winning.

Oi!! Wait 'til I've got a hundred posts or so, and then we'll revisit that little contest!

[Dan Norder]

The uteri in jars story is not believed by you and others, I know that. But thats not proof it was a lie.

No, nothing is absolute proof of anything. You can only go with the weight of the evidence, and in this instance it's overwhelming.

[perrymason]

No, nothing is absolute proof of anything. You can only go with the weight of the evidence, and in this instance it's overwhelming.

Hi Dan,

That Jars were never found, or that the source of the story is discreditted on other grounds, doesnt make it overwhelming evidence. It makes it questionable. Which is more than fair.

Unless you have a reputable source close to Dr T that is on record refuting the stories of the uteri, or someone who was also in Dr T's private rooms, reputable, and stated there were never any jars there...it is still possible. And when juxtaposed against stories of an American doctor seeking uteri, and two Ripper victims losing theirs while Dr T was in London, for myself, Ill leave the door open.

Best regards.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Unless you have a reputable source close to Dr T that is on record refuting the stories of the uteri...it is still possible.

Unfortunately, the reverse it true. Unless there is a "reputable source" for Tumblety having uteri-filled jars in the first place, the parsimonious conclusion is that he didn't, and I'm afraid Colonel Dunham doesn't quite cut the mustard as a "reputable source". Similarly, if you examine the article that appeared in the British Medical Journal, which countered the rash conclusions of Wynne Baxter, it will become immediately apparent that the "American doctor" in question could not have been Tumblety.

Long time no chat, Mike. Hope all's well!

Ben

[Sam Flynn]

And when juxtaposed against stories of an American doctor seeking uteri, and two Ripper victims losing theirs...

...one and a bit uteri, one with attachments and one without, a kidney, a piece of a belly wall including one navel (for the use of), a chunk of bladder, and one heart.

One can only presume that Tumblety's "Uterus Museum" was opening a new wing.

[Dan Norder]

That Jars were never found, or that the source of the story is discreditted on other grounds, doesnt make it overwhelming evidence.

A famous con man getting paid to write a news article which quotes his own alias, giving himself false military credentials, which makes a claim that Tumblety in an office in a location he never really had an office and obviously wouldn't (which was apparently picked to try to associate him with Lincoln's assassins) supposedly showed off a collection of uteri after the public had already been told the Ripper removed such organs and not ever mentioned by all the people who knew Tumblety in all the years between this supposed event and the Ripper murders...

I mean, come on, get serious here. You couldn't come up with a less reliable source than that if we sat around trying to think up a scenario featuring the most ridiculously untrustworthy person and story ever.

[perrymason]

HI Dan, Ben,...Nice to see you too Ben..hope all is going swimmingly.

I will say that incredible outlandish stories and ideas are insinuated throughout these boards, other sites, and in credible books on JtR as well, so whose to say what's really fact or fiction.

I do take your comments to heart though, just leaving the possibility open.

Best regards.

[Dan Norder]

so whose to say what's really fact or fiction.

If that sentiment were true then nobody could ever learn anything. If your argument is that it's ultimately hopeless to ever sort fact from fiction, then you might as well just give up even trying to discuss any topic intelligently at all.