Patterns of behavior and Tumblety

[Varqm]

We need to be careful with witness statements taken by the police or witness testimonies given in the inquiries regarding possible JTR suspects. We're talking about night time observations often made from a distance. Stewart Evans shared his personal experience with testimonies and statements: https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html


As for one's height, it's would have probably been the easiest thing to disguise if it needed to be increased or decreased. The average temperatures during the murder events being around 50 F and in London's rainiest season, men would wear overcoats or capes conceiling the method used. In my novel, 'My Ripper Hunting Days' one of my characters explains how it could be done.



Cheers,
Hecule Poirot

But still comparing two people standing close to each other was better than just estimating without comparing,and height need not be mentioned,only if one was taller than the other.Levy happened to estimate Eddowe's height correctly,so I gave more credibility to his estimate,3 inches taller or a bit taller and to a lesser degree Long as well.
As far as any other descriptions,sure people could make mistakes.As I posted before people are thinking about something else when an incident occurred as opposed to preparing to observe it,so they are bound to miss things or things could be unclear.They even go as afar as using hypnosis to induce "accuracy".


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[Varqm]

Levy "accurately" determined Chapman's height at 5 feet.When it came to "heights" Levy was a better witness than Lawende.
Just by this simple fact and Long's testimony Tumblety could be eliminated as a suspect..

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It should say "Levy "accurately" determined Eddowe's height at 5 feet.

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[Hercule Poirot]

The question of height and witness testimonies

Anne Chapman: 5' tall

Mrs. Elizabeth Long : He appeared to me to be a little taller than the deceased.

Catherine Eddowes: 5 feet tall

Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy: I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high.

Lawende: 5 ft. 7 or 8 in,but no comparison to the victim which was easy/easier to see/compare than estimate the height.


The height is a big problem for Tumblety as a suspect.How did he disguise height?

---

We need to be careful with witness statements taken by the police or witness testimonies given in the inquiries regarding possible JTR suspects. We're talking about night time observations often made from a distance. Stewart Evans shared his personal experience with testimonies and statements: https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html


As for one's height, it's would have probably been the easiest thing to disguise if it needed to be increased or decreased. The average temperatures during the murder events being around 50 F and in London's rainiest season, men would wear overcoats or capes conceiling the method used. In my novel, 'My Ripper Hunting Days' one of my characters explains how it could be done.



Cheers,
Hecule Poirot

[Hercule Poirot]

Sorry if I didn't react sooner to this thread. I've been rather busy during the past months, traveled where I had no internet access and am now down in Mexico where I live.


At the Baltimore conference, I covered many issues related to Tumblety including height and Tumblety's sexual orientation Whitechapel pointed out above many of them applicable to other Ripper suspects.



If you want to have a look at the text I prepared for the conference and was part of the London JTR confrence delegate kit, here's the link : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttncn523a8...ation.pdf?dl=0


I've also made some comments on circumstantial evidence and behavior patterns.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for your interest.

Bernard Beaule addressed some of the issues against Tumblety being JTR at the Baltimore Conference.

On his height most witnesses describe a man of about 35-36 5 foot 6 inches and one said he had a deerstalker (Sherlock Holmes ?)

Beaule addresses this by saying he could have been viewed at a distance or disguised his height. Tumblety was ostentatious in America, but did he dress down in Britain ?

On homosexuality being a barrier he says this:

"Although quite rare, homosexual serials preferring women as victims is a known fact, Edward Theodore Gein probably being the most monstrous of all. Some serial killers were bisexual such as Albert Howard Fish, Henry Lee Lucas and Marc Dutroux which allows us to accept the hypothesis that a homosexual such as Tumblety could have murdered women regardless of his sexual orientation"

The idea of Tumblety contracting out is attractive but who would he have got to do it ? The Star made it a high profile case and if you were caught you would most certainly have been hanged.

However if Tumblety was the Euston medical man, he had a cast iron alibi that liberated him and the police were watching him too. If that was the case to be involved he would have had to contract out.

It is an intriguing case but it would help if we knew what Tumblety was doing on October when the pattern broke and what he was doing in Birminghan. The missing Scotland yard file would shed light on his activities and what a find that would be if it resurfaced. But like most new discoveries there would be more questions than answers.

Ive always thought that if Tumblety was involved he found someone to do his dirty work. And that person being Chapman.


perhaps they met because they were both "doctors". I could see Tumblety meeting Chapman this way and asking how he could obtail female organ "specimins" having failed to get them by inquiring at the medical schools (the coronor story), and saying he would pay nicely for them. and chapman takes matters into his own hands.


i know it sounds crazy but could explain alot. and as I said abberline had a similar theory.

[Varqm]

Levy "accurately" determined Chapman's height at 5 feet.When it came to "heights" Levy was a better witness than Lawende.
Just by this simple fact and Long's testimony Tumblety could be eliminated as a suspect..

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[Varqm]

But still they describe two different people, about 5 inches height difference.

When it came to the height I believe in Levy or Long rather than Lawende because the difference between the killer and victim they had seen.While estimating the height without comparing 2 people was more guesswork.
They saw the same couple so Levy's testimony was as valid as Lawende - who was trusted and used as a witness later on.They chosed Lawende over Levy because Lawende paid more attention to the couple than Levy.

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[GUT]

The police.Common sense.The window of time between Eddowes/sailor man and Chapman/shabby-genteel and a new man(killer) appearing was too narrow.

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But still they describe two different people, about 5 inches height difference.

[Varqm]

And who says any of those (with a 5 inch difference surely not the same person) was the killer?

The police.Common sense.The window of time between Eddowes/sailor man and Chapman/shabby-genteel and a new man(killer) appearing was too narrow.

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[GUT]

Anne Chapman: 5' tall

Mrs. Elizabeth Long : He appeared to me to be a little taller than the deceased.

Catherine Eddowes: 5 feet tall

Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy: I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high.

Lawende: 5 ft. 7 or 8 in,but no comparison to the victim which was easy/easier to see/compare than estimate the height.


The height is a big problem for Tumblety as a suspect.How did he disguise height?

---

And who says any of those (with a 5 inch difference surely not the same person) was the killer?

[Varqm]

Anne Chapman: 5' tall

Mrs. Elizabeth Long : He appeared to me to be a little taller than the deceased.

Catherine Eddowes: 5 feet tall

Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy: I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high.

Lawende: 5 ft. 7 or 8 in,but no comparison to the victim which was easy/easier to see/compare than estimate the height.


The height is a big problem for Tumblety as a suspect.How did he disguise height?

---

[Whitechapel]

One answer as to who Tumblety would get to do it

The Dundee Courier 26th December 1888 quoted a William P Burr as saying:

"My own idea of the Whitechapel case is that it would be just such a thing as Tumblety would be concerned in; but he might get one of his victims to do the work, for once he had a younger man under his control, he seemed to be able to do anything with the victim."

[Whitechapel]

So. This is antersting post. To me anyway.

Ive always considered tumblety an intersti g character. Was he jack the ripper? No probably not. First of all he was probably a homo sexual. Sexondly he matches non of the witness description.
Third of all, he probably wouls not know the steerts of wc enough.

But... but... he has not been ruled out and was one police suspect.

What to make of it?

He also defitely does not the type to get his hands dirty. I could see him finding someone to procure his specimins.

He may have found chapman. I know crazy... but abberline espousd something very similar.

Thanks for your interest.

Bernard Beaule addressed some of the issues against Tumblety being JTR at the Baltimore Conference.

On his height most witnesses describe a man of about 35-36 5 foot 6 inches and one said he had a deerstalker (Sherlock Holmes ?)

Beaule addresses this by saying he could have been viewed at a distance or disguised his height. Tumblety was ostentatious in America, but did he dress down in Britain ?

On homosexuality being a barrier he says this:

"Although quite rare, homosexual serials preferring women as victims is a known fact, Edward Theodore Gein probably being the most monstrous of all. Some serial killers were bisexual such as Albert Howard Fish, Henry Lee Lucas and Marc Dutroux which allows us to accept the hypothesis that a homosexual such as Tumblety could have murdered women regardless of his sexual orientation"

The idea of Tumblety contracting out is attractive but who would he have got to do it ? The Star made it a high profile case and if you were caught you would most certainly have been hanged.

However if Tumblety was the Euston medical man, he had a cast iron alibi that liberated him and the police were watching him too. If that was the case to be involved he would have had to contract out.

It is an intriguing case but it would help if we knew what Tumblety was doing on October when the pattern broke and what he was doing in Birminghan. The missing Scotland yard file would shed light on his activities and what a find that would be if it resurfaced. But like most new discoveries there would be more questions than answers.

[Whitechapel]

Wasn't the concept of a two-day weekend still some way in the future? Most people in 1888 had to work at least half of Saturday, if not all.
Also, although after midnight so technically on Friday, weren't Nichols and Kelly killed on Thursday nights?

Yes I agree for a working man the weekend was short, footballers had trouble getting Saturday afternoons off and this is why some played on Wednesday at this time after early closing.

I don't think Tumblety at this time was a working man in Britain, he was a tourist. He visited his niece, had some Fenian connections for him to have a file at Scotland Yard, he sought out male company and wanted to add to his uteri collection.

This being the case although I don't think he worked on his visits to Britain, he still looked forward to the end of the week in areas that prostitutes frequented.

The question is how he filled his time in October, since the pattern breaks in this month and what was he doing in Birmingham ?

I think the missing file at Scotland Yard held a few of these answers and Littlechild knew his whereabouts at the times of the murders because Tumblety was being watched.

In the St Louis files Tumblety admits that he was in Whitechapel at the time of but they were not one event but a series of events. So is he admitting to being there throughout ? as there is this gap in October.

[Abby Normal]

I was interested by Mike Hawley's new look at Tumblety and in particular by this reference to the "medical man" who Mike has linked to Tumblety coming "up to London on Saturday nights".

I think a problem for anyone putting forward a ripper suspect is fitting them into the pattern of the canonical five in time and space.

For time I mean the pattern of the murders of the canonical five at the end of the month and the first week of the month.

Friday 31 August Mary Nichols
Saturday 8 September Annie Chapman
Sunday 30 September Elizabeth Stride/Catherine Eddowes
5/6/7/ October
26/27/28 October
Friday 9th November Mary Kelly

I think you have to explain the pattern of killing at the end of the month and a week later. To his credit Trevor Marriott has done this by linking the times of the murders to the arrival of the cattle boats.

Tumblety was not found by this approach, rather by documentary evidence from a letter that revealed newspaper articles tracing his journey back to America.

The reference to the medical man/Tumblety travelling up to London on Saturdays is the first time I had read about a pattern to his movements, even though I concede this has been in the public domain.

If Tumblety was the murderer then by travelling on Saturdays he would have been too late for two of his murders on Fridays.

The pattern of JTR was to kill at weekends (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) that hints at a 9am-5pm existence and a special treat at weekends.

A possible reason for killing at the end of the month may have been to take advantage of the darkness afforded by a new moon and a half moon the following week. This may be why there were no murders around a bright full moon (18th-21st) as darkness was needed around the alleys of the East End.

In October, the 8th and 9th did not fit neatly into a weekend and likewise the weekend of the 26/27/28 was not at the end of the month.

It is not a great reason for the lack of murders in October but the lack of a pattern in October and the reason for it is just as important.


For space, if you accept Tumblety as JTR, his movements are equally important. He was a regular visitor to the British Isles.

Years ago I heard a profiler say that a serial killer would go out of their area for a special kill, as a treat. It would be like a shopper making a special trip to a market town.

Tumblety not only chose a different country but different cities within a different country. His safe country was America and he travelled to Britain. Once in Britain his safe city was Liverpool where his niece lived. He could travel to Birmingham and London by the London & North Western Railway. If he lodged in Birmingham, it would be interesting to know whether he saw this as a safe city, a stepping stone or a destination for his crimes and also whether he would have scouted out the red light district and may have been active there. The interest is in what he was doing in this place.

The East End of London was a destination because the source of interest, poor prostitutes was there. You can speculate that he created safe areas there, dark corners in courtyards, the house in Batty Street and the hotel at Charing Cross.

When he was arrested for gross indecency you can argue that he no longer felt safe, fled back to Birmingham with a return ticket to pick up his things (or forward his uteri by parcel to America) and was picked up at Willesden. The police in Birmingham and London were watching him (and may even unwittingly have provided an alibi). If he was aware of being watched on the northern route it may explain why he used a southern route via the South Eastern & Chatham Railway to Boulogne.

In conclusion any author putting forward a suspect has to explain the timing of the murders, why they began ? and why they followed a pattern ?
Also they have to explain the space i.e. what was Tumblety was doing in Liverpool, Birmingham and London ? and specifically what are the records of his activities in Birmingham ?

If Tumblety is your man you could argue his trip to Britain was to harvest organs for his uteri collection and the trip was functional as he was quick even though the results were gruesome. The Mary Kelly murder does not fit into this pattern as it was not simply a case of organ removal as the murderer over indulged.

Tumblety has always been a favourite suspect for me and Mike Hawley has taken Evans and Gainey's work to the next level. However to take it further the patterns of the crime and Tumblety's behaviour have to be matched.

The link of Tumblety to the Euston traveller by Mike Hawley may have opened up a line of inquiry to do this. I am looking forward to developments

So. This is antersting post. To me anyway.

Ive always considered tumblety an intersti g character. Was he jack the ripper? No probably not. First of all he was probably a homo sexual. Sexondly he matches non of the witness description.
Third of all, he probably wouls not know the steerts of wc enough.

But... but... he has not been ruled out and was one police suspect.

What to make of it?

He also defitely does not the type to get his hands dirty. I could see him finding someone to procure his specimins.

He may have found chapman. I know crazy... but abberline espousd something very similar.