Tumblety - Hermaphrodite.

[Pinkerton]

I'm not sure where Pinkerton is getting "he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End"? Or where the claim that it wasn't consensual is coming from, (it may not have been, but I don't recall any evidence stating such).

Director Dave, #60 in the thread brought up the fact that four men claimed to have been sexually assaulted by Tumblety.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Everything that I have read and seen the charge was "Gross Indecency".




I'm not sure where Pinkerton is getting "he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End"? Or where the claim that it wasn't consensual is coming from, (it may not have been, but I don't recall any evidence stating such).

Thanks DD
But what did he actually do to get that charge?

[Abby Normal]

Abbie, I take your point about Norris. As to society being more private about that sort of thing, I think this shouldn't be overestimated. I saw a documentary about President Buchanon in the U.S. who was the only lifelong bachelor who served as president from 1857-1861. MANY congressmen and former politicians made disparaging remarks behind Buchanon's back because they suspected he was homosexual (he also had a male friend he lived with). This included Andrew Jackson who made such remarks when Buchanon served as a congressman. And it is actually likely that Buchanon was NOT gay but him being a lifelong bachelor was enough to get people talking even during the Victorian era.

I personally am extremely skeptical that Tumblety could have been the Ripper. Firstly, if you look purely at statistics the vast majority of serial killers who don't murder for financial gain do it because they are sexual sadists. Especially serial killers who kill prostitutes. And sexual sadists who are gay tend to murder males, not females (Jefferey Dahmer, William Macdonald, Herb Baumeister, John Wayne Gacy, etc). Secondly, the Ripper MUST have known the East End area extremely well to be able to murder women undetected when policemen would literally pass the same spot every 30 minutes. And he did this in a densely populated area. I can't see an out of town American just drop into the East End and manage to pull that off.

I personally think ALL of the suspects that have been put forward during the time of the murders were TERRIBLE. But that's just my opinion.

Hi pink
No. I hear you. I’ve got T down on my list too. I put him in my second tier of viable candidates. He was a big ostentatious guy, and doesn’t fit any of the witness descriptions. Also, as you pointed out, serial killers go after the sex they are attracted to, and yes the ripper must have known WC like the back of his hand and T couldn’t have.

I know I’ll probably get laughed at for this, but if T was involved at all, I think he might have found some WC local to procure specimens he wanted. You know what with the story of the American doctor and the rumor of T having specimens.

And again, like you, I think all the suspects are weak. Some are just less weak than others.

[DirectorDave]

Hi Abby, Pink.

Pinkerton is correct, there is mention of "Assault against 4 men with force of arms", does appear in ripper notes.

I think the Gross Indecency must include penetration? I would say that leaves only one opening so to speak, but in Tumblety's case it could have been 2?

[David Orsam]

The charges against Tumblety were four counts of gross indecency (with four males) and four counts of indecent assault (upon the same four males).

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the wording in the charges was not "with force of arms", it was "with Force and Arms" (my emphasis).

[jmenges]

Quoting Pinkerton

Firstly, if Tumblety WAS in fact "intersex" this tends to make a claim of him sexually assaulting ANY ONE difficult to believe. Not IMPOSSIBLE mind you, but more difficult to believe. Not to get too graphic but many intersex males have much less erectile tissue which makes sex very difficult...ESPECIALLY if you attempted to FORCE sex on someone.

In Norris' testimony he states that Tumblety, with a knife in his hand, locked the door to his room, unzipped Norris' pants and fondled him. Norris then says Tumblety undressed and laid in bed and insisted that Norris have sex with him and tried to coax him and bribe him to do this. Tumblety would be on the receiving end. If this had taken place in the UK it might amount to gross indecency and indecent assault.

JM

[Abby Normal]

The charges against Tumblety were four counts of gross indecency (with four males) and four counts of indecent assault (upon the same four males).

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the wording in the charges was not "with force of arms", it was "with Force and Arms" (my emphasis).

Hi David
Thanks. Do you have any other insight of what actually took place though? I mean is this rape?

[Pcdunn]

I thought the evidence found against Tumblety were four letters from four different men, the contents of which concerned 'indecency" and that were either on his person or among his possessions. This certainly doesn't sound very violent at all, Abby.

[jmenges]

The first charge stating "with Force and Arms" indicates that Tumblety forced the men to commit an act. The second charge stated he "unlawfully and indecently did make an indecent assault" on the four men. The charges were based more than on just letters. Though to what extent the men, and even Norris, were "victims" is questionable. Tumblety offered Norris money which he refused. Fisher, Brice, Crowley and Doughty may have accepted the money.

JM

[Abby Normal]

The first charge stating "with Force and Arms" indicates that Tumblety forced the men to commit an act. The second charge stated he "unlawfully and indecently did make an indecent assault" on the four men. The charges were based more than on just letters. Though to what extent the men, and even Norris, were "victims" is questionable. Tumblety offered Norris money which he refused. Fisher, Brice, Crowley and Doughty may have accepted the money.

JM

Thanks

Well sounds like they were victims to me. Sexual assault with a knife (Norris) and indecent forcible assault (London). I mean that’s rape isn’t it?
One step away from murder.

[Pcdunn]

Thanks, JM, very informative.

[caz]

In Norris' testimony he states that Tumblety, with a knife in his hand, locked the door to his room, unzipped Norris' pants and fondled him. Norris then says Tumblety undressed and laid in bed and insisted that Norris have sex with him and tried to coax him and bribe him to do this. Tumblety would be on the receiving end. If this had taken place in the UK it might amount to gross indecency and indecent assault.

JM

I'm not a man, so I don't know if it's possible for a straight, or otherwise non-consenting male to get an erection while being fondled by another male brandishing a knife. I would imagine not, but maybe we need someone with that exact experience to tell us.

Merely fondling an unwilling recipient while carrying a knife would fit the definition of indecent assault, but if this is what happened, would it not suggest it was Tumblety with the erection while this was going on?

It all sounds a bit limp [if you'll excuse the pun] if Tumblety's bits and pieces were not quite as other men's.

I had long assumed the sexual activity with those four young men - whatever form it took [no cctv or independent witnesses, presumably] - was consensual, but the only way for charges against Tumblety to stick was for the police to get his partners to say they were unwilling victims of a forced assault. In short they had 'normal' appetites, but had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. In that way, they escaped any charges and escaped any stigma, and everyone except Tumblety were happy bunnies.

As for Norris, he must have been lying. He wasn't alive all those years before Coronation Street.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

I know these folks are long dead and men, but seems to me a bit of downplaying and laughing off of what he was apparently accused of doing.

[DirectorDave]

I'm not a man, so I don't know if it's possible for a straight, or otherwise non-consenting male to get an erection while being fondled by another male brandishing a knife. I would imagine not, but maybe we need someone with that exact experience to tell us.

I can't speak about having any kind of experience like that or speak for any other bloke but erections can happen at the most inopportune moments.

I had an examination down there by a rather elderly male doctor and if it had went on any longer than it had things might have got quite embarrassing if you catch my drift.

I only like girls, but just someone touching down there was enough, to start the blood flowing so to speak.

[GUT]

I'm not a man, so I don't know if it's possible for a straight, or otherwise non-consenting male to get an erection while being fondled by another male brandishing a knife. I would imagine not, but maybe we need someone with that exact experience to tell us.

Merely fondling an unwilling recipient while carrying a knife would fit the definition of indecent assault, but if this is what happened, would it not suggest it was Tumblety with the erection while this was going on?

It all sounds a bit limp [if you'll excuse the pun] if Tumblety's bits and pieces were not quite as other men's.

I had long assumed the sexual activity with those four young men - whatever form it took [no cctv or independent witnesses, presumably] - was consensual, but the only way for charges against Tumblety to stick was for the police to get his partners to say they were unwilling victims of a forced assault. In short they had 'normal' appetites, but had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. In that way, they escaped any charges and escaped any stigma, and everyone except Tumblety were happy bunnies.

As for Norris, he must have been lying. He wasn't alive all those years before Coronation Street.

Love,

Caz
X

1. Yes it is possible to get an erection while being raped, I wonder if you’d ask the same about a woman, can she get aroused or have an irgasm while being raped? I think that defence was rejected about the time Jack finished his spree, or not that long after. Though some idiots still try to use it as a defence to this day.

2.not all sexual assault involves “intercourse” there are other things go on you know.

3. No, consensual homosexual activity was still a crime upto 1967