Tumblety - Hermaphrodite.

[DirectorDave]

Tumblety: The Hidden Truth podcast is a fascinating listen, just when you think Tumblety could be a no more interesting.

I'm still trying to process it all but I'm very surprised there has been no discussion on here of the new information.

As for his intersex condition, I have a couple of observations. Absences of testosterone in adolescence males causes elongation of the limbs, they tend to be tall...we know Tumblety was over 6 foot tall. Lack of testosterone also causes the voice not to break which ties in with the "woman's voice" of Tumblety in the documents.

The "woman's shape" hints at more than just a lack of testosterone however, without testosterone in the womb the genitals remain a "default" female appearance, but secondary gender characteristics (breast formation and female large hips and fat distribution) requires female hormones not just the lack of male ones.

As in many things Ripper related we find out something new and it raises more questions than it answers, but a fascinating find.

[Robert]

Absences of testosterone in adolescence males causes elongation of the limbs, they tend to be tall

Hence the paradox that castrati could simultaneously have a counter-tenor vocal range and yet play heroic roles.

[Sam Flynn]

Absences of testosterone in adolescence males causes elongation of the limbs, they tend to be tall

Hence the paradox that castrati could simultaneously have a counter-tenor vocal range and yet play heroic roles.

Superstar castrato Senesino (right) was very tall, and literally towered over his competitors:



He worked frequently with Handel, creating several important roles for the composer and earning enormous sums of money in the process.

[Steadmund Brand]

Just remember....it was reported as " Hermaphrodite" or more accurately "morphrodite" this was not a clinical diagnosis.. the condition could very well have been miro penis and not hermaphrodite...hard to tell without a detailed coroner report or medical examination report... hoping they are still out there somewhere... we have been looking.. and have found MANY other details on his life.. a lot of which will be in Mike's upcoming book (due out in November.. and I can't recommend it highly enough)..one thing is for sure....Tumblety had an interesting life to say the least

Steadmund Brand (Brian)

[DirectorDave]

Thanks for the reply folks.

@Robert & Sam...

The castrati line is interesting I must admit it is the first thing that came to mind when I heard the podcast.


@ Steadmund...

I agree we must take the Herma/morph description with a pinch of salt, but the high voice and "Womanly shape" I think may point to more going on than just a micropenis.


Another couple of thoughts...is it possible that Francis was actually Frances and perhaps a birth certificate was designated "F" at birth.

That moustache...could it be like many other things in FT's life it was a fake one?

I think I'll invest in the book come November, not because I think FM is Jack, just because he is undoubtedly a fascinating character.

[Sam Flynn]

That moustache...could it be like many other things in FT's life it was a fake one?

If so, he certainly looks like he was trying to over-compensate for something

[Steadmund Brand]

I thought maybe the moustache was a fake for a while....I am almost positive it is in one "photo of Tumblety" however... there were other reports regarding his facial hair... once he was older, that do lead me to believe it was real facial hair....I also agree that statements " may point to more going on than just a micropenis" but I wont jump to conclusions.. yet...We need facts not speculation... that is the mistake made in so much ripper research...but we are on the right track I can tell you that... and I too am not convinced he was that Ripper...but I do know now that he must be taken seriously as a suspects.. because he was by several police then and he did have the means and motive and mentality to do it.. plus he was there (unlike some other "suspects" that have had coverage as of late..

Steadmund Brand (Brian)

[DirectorDave]

If so, he certainly looks like he was trying to over-compensate for something

Lol, yes....perhaps even his elaborate phallic headstone was the final manifestation of that over-compensation.

I thought maybe the moustache was a fake for a while....I am almost positive it is in one "photo of Tumblety" however... there were other reports regarding his facial hair... once he was older, that do lead me to believe it was real facial hair....I also agree that statements " may point to more going on than just a micropenis" but I wont jump to conclusions.. yet...We need facts not speculation... that is the mistake made in so much ripper research...but we are on the right track I can tell you that... and I too am not convinced he was that Ripper...but I do know now that he must be taken seriously as a suspects.. because he was by several police then and he did have the means and motive and mentality to do it.. plus he was there (unlike some other "suspects" that have had coverage as of late..

To quote Mr SP Evans from quarter of a century ago...he is not a silly suspect, like many others.

He was undoubtedly in the East End at the time, which makes him a more viable suspect than 90%+ of the suspects that have a book about them.

I love the speculation tbh, as long as people suggesting elaborate or "out the box" theories do not present them as "must be true" absolutes we need not be sidetracked by them.

[Bridewell]

It's a pity that SPE no longer posts on this forum.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

we know Tumblety was over 6 foot tall.

We don’t know how tall Francis Tumblety was, descriptions vary and estimates of height are usually unreliable. He, himself, pointed out that the military pass given to him in 1865 listed him as six feet tall which, presumably, was his height.

Lack of testosterone also causes the voice not to break which ties in with the "woman's voice" of Tumblety in the documents.

In all my hundreds of Tumblety newspaper clippings I can find no indication that anyone stated that Tumblety spoke with a “woman’s voice.” In fact his voice is rarely mentioned. One paper stated that “He hurriedly engaged a cab, gave the directions in a low voice and was driven away” [The New York World, 4 December, 1888] which doesn’t actually describe Tumblety’s normal voice. He was also said to speak “in a quick, nervous fashion,” [the New York World, 29 January, 1889] and more than one paper said he spoke with an English accent. IF Tumblety spoke with an unusually high voice I’m surprised that this “fact” never surfaced in all the decades that Tumblety appeared in newspapers.

The ‘woman's shape’ hints at more than just a lack of testosterone however, without testosterone in the womb the genitals remain a ‘default’ female appearance, but secondary gender characteristics (breast formation and female large hips and fat distribution) requires female hormones not just the lack of male ones.

Again, in all my hundreds of Tumblety newspaper clippings I can find no indication that anyone stated that Tumblety had a “woman’s shape.” He WAS described as having “a faultless physique,” [the San Francisco Daily Examiner, 23 November, 1888] and having a “graceful and powerful build,” [the New York Times, 19 November, 1888] and was “a powerfully built man,” [the New York World, 29 January, 1889] however.

perhaps even his elaborate phallic headstone was the final manifestation of that over-compensation.

I know this was meant as a joke but the monument was actually raised for the Tumblety family and not for Francis Tumblety only. Other family member’s names are listed on it as well.

He was undoubtedly in the East End at the time

Yes. Or, as Tumblety himself stated, he visited the East End, “with thousands of other people,” because he was interested “by the excitement and the crowds and the queer scenes and sights” [The New York World, 29 January, 1889]. He didn’t live there, as far as we know. In fact we don’t know where he was living during the Autumn of Terror but it wasn’t likely to have been the East End.

Wolf.

[DirectorDave]

Hi Wolf, have you listened to the podcast?

3 separate accounts of him having a feminine attributes or differing from the male norm from the waist down by people who had seen him naked, also confirming he was well built from the waist up.

Certainly his feminine voice was worthy of note by a couple of people in this evidence.

If you are disputing the evidence presented in the podcast can you enlighten me as to why we should doubt it?

[c.d.]

Well playing devil's advocate don't you think that that would have been something that he would have wanted to conceal rather than advertise? If so, what about all those encounters with young men that led to his arrest?

c.d.

[DirectorDave]

Well playing devil's advocate don't you think that that would have been something that he would have wanted to conceal rather than advertise? If so, what about all those encounters with young men that led to his arrest?

c.d.

Hi cd.

One of the observations was made when his trousers fell down when unconscious and the other on the mortuary slab, in those two instances concealment was not within his power. In the podcast it certainly obvious that Tumblety wanted it concealed.

The other was a sexual encounter with a young man, which FT was assuming a passive role which may hint at what "all those encounters with young men" involved.

[Steadmund Brand]

Hi Wolf, have you listened to the podcast?

3 separate accounts of him having a feminine attributes or differing from the male norm from the waist down by people who had seen him naked, also confirming he was well built from the waist up.

Certainly his feminine voice was worthy of note by a couple of people in this evidence.

If you are disputing the evidence presented in the podcast can you enlighten me as to why we should doubt it?

Thank you Dave....and thank you for listening to the podcast...there is more as well...much more, that Podcast we did when there was only limited info we were able to provide (for complicated reasons) but as I have said, Mike's book will be full of interesting revelations...

Also remember, I went into this project as the skeptic, the "anti Tumblety guy" but facts are facts....And I will say it again... I AM NOT SAYING HE WAS THE RIPPER...but...the evidence shows that he clearly COULD BE... and should be taken seriously.

Michael Hawley does not come from a Ripperology background.. he is a scientist and is about finding evidence...not opinion...but facts... that he checks and double checks and puts up for peer review..there are those who have a problem with him (and myself I have heard) but oh well... that come with the territory I guess....all I ask is that you listen, read and you can make up your own mind.. and please check and double check the data... this has nothing to do with ego for Mike (again, or myself), if we can be proved wrong.. I mean PROVED... great... that's what scientific study is all about... finding the truth.

The Ripperology community should be thankful to have Mr. Hawley as a part of it now...he brings a fresh approach, no ego and he is a workaholic (even if he has proven me wrong on 2 occasions... I wont hold that against him)

Steadmund Brand (Brian)-

[DirectorDave]

Hi again Brian,

When someone here mentions "secret squirrel" evidence that they can't talk about due to "complicated" reasons my eyes tend to roll and it's "oh aye here we go again Diaryesque musings", but as these are Saint Louis County legal documents, I totally understand why things would be complicated and I am content to wait for further details.

The thing is, this information is not from some Victorian newspaper hack trying to turn a coin or indeed Tumblety himself in one of his biographies furthering his Walter Mitty style life...this is evidence presented in court, before a judge (I assume?) under oath? By people with no reason to lie.

This could be the most unbiased account of Tumblety we have to date. I'm not here looking to find Jack in truth I'm a wannabee time traveller that finds this case and all that surrounds it a kind of flux-capacitor to take me right back there to the LVP and the autumn of terror.

There is an instance of an intersex condition in my family and the "shaped like a woman from the waist down" rings quite a few bells...the individual in question has grown up to be a fairly average blokey bloke.

The issue in question within my family was Klinefelter syndrome (XXY Chromosomes). From what was reported I am left with the conclusion Tumblety had a functioning vagina that was used to gain sexual pleasure when intimate...other conclusions are available.

I'm not sure the evidence presented really advances FT's candidacy as the ripper...if you believe he was a impotent male using the knife as a phallic symbol it may do, if you think Jack was a rapist/killer then I think this evidence almost rules Tumblety out.

Really interesting stuff and makes Tumblety an even more fascinating character, irrespective of his candidacy as the Whitechapel murderer...I look forward to hearing and reading more.